Sunday, March 25, 2007

Death Squad in Delaware: The Case of the Murdered Marine (UPDATED)

UPDATE --

Scott Horton of Antiwar.com kindly invited me to be a guest on Antiwar radio to discuss the outrageous killing of Derek Hale.



He survived Iraq, only to suffer Death By Government in the "Land of the Free": Sgt. Derek J. Hale, USMC, ret. -- RIP

Delaware was the first state to ratify the U.S. Constitution. It may be the first state to be afflicted with a fully operational death squad – unless a civil lawsuit filed on Friday against the murders of Derek J. Hale results in criminal charges and a complete lustration (in the Eastern European sense of the term) of Delaware's law enforcement establishment.


Hale, a retired Marine Sergeant who served two tours in Iraq and was decorated before his combat-related medical discharge in January 2006, was murdered by a heavily armed 8-12-member undercover police team in Wilmington, Delaware last November 6. He had come to Wilmington from his home in Manassas, Virginia to participate in a Toys for Tots event.


Derek was house-sitting for a friend on the day he was murdered. Sandra Lopez, the ex-wife of Derek's friend, arrived with an 11-year-old son and a 6-year-old daughter just shortly before the police showed up. After helping Sandra and her children remove some of their personal belongings, Derek was sitting placidly on the front step, clad in jeans and a hooded sweatshirt, when an unmarked police car and a blacked-out SUV arrived and disgorged their murderous cargo.


Unknown to Derek, he had been under police surveillance as part of a ginned-up investigation into the Pagan Motorcycle Club, which he had joined several months before; the Pagans sponsored the “Toys for Tots Run” that had brought Derek to Delaware. As with any biker club, the Pagans probably included some disreputable people in their ranks. Derek was emphatically not one of them.


In addition to his honorable military service (albeit in a consummately dishonorable war), Derek's personal background was antiseptically clean. He had a concealed carry permit in Virginia, which would not have been issued to him if he'd been convicted of a felony, a narcotics or domestic violence charge, or had any record of substance abuse or mental illness.


On the day he was killed, Derek had been under both physical and electronic (and, according to the civil complaint, illegal) surveillance. Police personnel who observed him knew that his behavior was completely innocuous. And despite the fact that he had done nothing to warrant such treatment, he was considered an “un-indicted co-conspirator” in a purported narcotics ring run by the Pagans.


The police vehicles screeched to a halt in front of the house shortly after 4:00 p.m. They ordered Lopez and her children away from Derek – who, predictably, had risen to his feet by this time -- and then ordered him to remove his hands from his the pockets of his sweatshirt.


(Click to enlarge)





















Less than a second later – according to several eyewitnesses at the scene – Derek was hit with a taser blast that knocked him sideways and sent him into convulsions. His right hand involuntarily shot out of its pocket, clenching spasmodically.


Not in front of the kids,” Derek gasped, as he tried to force his body to cooperate. “Get the kids out of here.”


The officers continued to order Derek to put up his hands; he was physically unable to comply.


So they tased him again. This time he was driven to his side and vomited into a nearby flower bed.


Howard Mixon, a contractor who had been working nearby, couldn't abide the spectacle.


That's not necessary!” he bellowed at the assailants. “That's overkill! That's overkill!”


At this point, one of the heroes in blue (or, in this case, black) swaggered over to Mixon and snarled, “I'll f*****g show you overkill!” Having heroically shut up an unarmed civilian, the officer turned his attention back to Derek – who was being tased yet again.


I'm trying to get my hands out,” Derek exclaimed, desperately trying to make his tortured and traumatized body obey his will. Horrified, his friend Sandra screamed at the officers: “He is trying to get his hands out, he cannot get his hands out!”


Having established that Derek – an innocent man who had survived two tours of duty in Iraq – was defenseless, one of Wilmington's Finest closed in for the kill.


Lt. William Brown of the Wilmington Police Department, who was close enough to seize and handcuff the helpless victim, instead shot him in the chest at point-blank range, tearing apart his vitals with three .40-caliber rounds. He did this after Derek had said, repeatedly and explicitly, that he was trying to cooperate. He did this despite the fact that witnesses on the scene had confirmed that Derek was trying to cooperate. He did this in front of a traumatized mother and two horrified children.


Why was this done?


According to Sgt. Steven Elliot of the WPD, Brown slaughtered Derek Hale because he “feared for the safety of his fellow officers and believed that the suspect was in a position to pose an imminent threat.” That subjective belief was sufficient justification to use “deadly force,” according to Sgt. Elliot.


The “position” Derek was in, remember, was that of wallowing helplessly in his own vomit, trying to overcome the cumulative effects of three completely unjustified Taser attacks.


When asked by the Wilmington News Journal last week if Hale had ever threatened the officers – remember, there were at least 8 and as many as 12 of them – Elliot replied: “In a sense, [he threatened the officers] when he did not comply with their commands.”


He wasn't given a chance to comply: He was hit with the first Taser strike less than a second after he was commanded to remove his hands from his pockets, and then two more in rapid succession. The killing took roughly three minutes.


As is always the case when agents of the State murder an innocent person, the WPD immediately went into cover-up mode. The initial account of the police murder claimed that Derek had “struggled with undercover Wilmington vice officers”; that “struggle,” of course, referred to Derek's involuntary reaction to multiple, unjustified Taser strikes.


The account likewise mentioned that police recovered “two items that were considered weapons” from Derek's body. Neither was a firearm. One was a container of pepper spray. The other was a switchblade knife. Both were most likely planted on the murder victim: The police on the scene had pepper spray, and Derek's stepbrother, Missouri resident Jason Singleton, insists that Derek never carried a switchblade.


The last time I saw Derek,” Jason told the News Journal, “he had a small Swiss Army knife. I've never seen Derek with anything like a switchblade.”


Within hours, the WPD began to fabricate a back-story to justify Derek's murder. Several Delware State Police officers – identified in the suit (.pdf) as “Lt. [Patrick] Ogden, Sgt. Randall Hunt, and other individual DSP [personnel]” contacted the police in Masassas, Virginia and informed him that Derek had been charged with drug trafficking two days before he was murdered. This was untrue. But because it was said by someone invested with the majestic power of the State, it was accepted as true, and cited in a sworn affidavit to secure a warrant to search Derek's home.


Conducting this spurious search – which was, remember, play-acting in the service of a cover story -- meant shoving aside Derek's grieving widow, Elaine, and her two shattered children, who had just lost their stepfather. Nothing of material consequence was found, but a useful bit of embroidery was added to the cover story.


Less than two weeks earlier, Derek and Elaine had celebrated their first anniversary.


The Delaware State Police officers are guilty of misprison of perjury, as are the officials who collaborated in this deception. And it's entirely likely that the Virginia State Police had guilty knowledge as well.


Last November 21, in an attempt to pre-empt public outrage, the highest officials of the Delaware State Police issued a press release in conjunction with their counterparts from Virginia. The statement is a work of unalloyed mendacity.


Hale resisted arrest and was shot and killed by Wilmington Police on November 6, 2006,” lied the signatories with reference to the claim that he "resisted." “Hale was at the center of a long term narcotics trafficking investigation which is still ongoing.”


As we've seen, Hale did not resist arrest, as everyone on the scene knew. And he was not at the “center” of any investigation; before his posthumous promotion to “un-indicted co-conspirator,” he was merely a “person of interest” because of his affiliation with a motorcycle club.


Most critically, the statement – which bears the august imprimatur of both the Delaware and Virginia State Police departments, remember – asserts: “Both [State Police] Superintendents have confirmed that there was never any false information exchanged by either agency in the investigation of Derek J. Hale, or transmitted between the agencies in order to obtain the search warrant.”


This was another lie.


Delaware State Police spokesperson Sgt. Melissa Zebley conceded last week that no arrest warrant for Hale was ever issued,” reported the News Journal on March 22. Three days after Hale was murdered, police arrested 12 members of the Pagans Motorcycle Club on various drug and weapons charges, but identified Hale at that point only as a “person of interest.”


Last Friday (May 23), the Rutherford Institute – one of the precious few nominally conservative activist groups that give half a damn about individual liberty – and a private law firm in Virginia filed a civil rights lawsuit against several Delaware law enforcement and political officials on behalf of Derek's widow and parents. They really should consider including key officials from the Virginia State Police in the suit, as well.



Those who persist in fetishizing local police – who are, at this point, merely local franchises of a unitary, militarized, Homeland Security apparatus – should ponder this atrocity long and hard.

They should contemplate not only the inexplicable eagerness of Lt. William Brown to kill a helpless, paralyzed pseudo-suspect, but also the practiced ease with which the police establishments of two states collaborated in confecting a fiction to cover up that crime.


According to the lawsuit, Lt. Brown, Derek's murderer, “has violated the constitutional rights of others in the past through the improper use of deadly force and has coached other WPD officers on how to lie about and/or justify the improper use of deadly force.” Rather than being cashiered, Brown was promoted – just as one would expect of any other dishonest, cowardly thug in the service of any other Third World death squad.


Derek J. Hale survived two tours of duty in Iraq, a country teeming with Pentagon-trained death squads, only to be murdered by their home-grown equivalent.


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61 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is shocking. Who is responsible for this? How do we get rid of these bad cops?

Anonymous said...

Take a gander at this "policy" within the article describing this mans murder.

...Wilmington police denied a request from The News Journal for their use-of-force policy, which addresses how and when officers may use deadly force and less-than-lethal weapons such as Tasers. They cited an August 2005 Freedom of Information request in which the Attorney General's Office found that the policies are not public documents....

Well, well.... Seems that anything can be covered now. The "policies" could describe all sorts of shenanigans allowed now because of the "war-on-terra". Thank you Mr. Bush! You evil moron!

dixiedog said...

This parcel is ominous:

At this point, one of the heroes in blue (or, in this case, black) swaggered over to Mixon and snarled, “I'll f*****g show you overkill!” Having heroically shut up an unarmed civilian, the officer turned his attention back to Derek – who was being tased yet again.

First off, it shows the shallowness of character this officer possesses, probably an ex-gangster himself. Secondly, the officers acting in unison with not one questioning these tactics and/or refusing to partake in this blatant murder, or even speak out after the smoke cleared, signifies that all of these police officers are of similar mindset, as you alluded to.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the local Leviathan forces in various parts of the country probably recruit not just a few "ex-Pagans" or members/ex-members of other quasi-gangster clubs onto their own payroll themselves. Should that be a big surprise to anyone? NO!!

After all, Mr. Hale, who we are to understand was of a respectable character in general, was a member of one and no one here would object to, say, he being a police officer, for instance, would they??

So that said, I have to ask why would an otherwise repectable combat veteran of Iraq want to join a motorcycle club that, he had to KNOW or be aware of beforehand, tolerates known disreputable, if not outright criminal elements within its ranks?? Would the name "Pagan..." not give a few hints??

Sigh, if you play with dogs, you get more than their fleas! When are folk going to understand that maxim?

Nevertheless, as is clear anyway you look at it, it's indeed an outright murder perpetrated by State agents. However, I hope in all sincerity that the lawsuit in question here isn't merely to make the plaintiffs millionaires. If plaintiffs win for that purpose, then other than helping them to retire on a beach somewhere, that doesn't accomplish a damn thing and doesn't really punish anybody, except for the hapless taxpayers in said jurisdiction who end up having to pay these gargantuan sums involuntarily.

The bread certainly doesn't come out of the pockets of the defendants themselves! That I could agree with. Make those individual defendants, along with the headmaster(s) of the implicated departments, that are directly responsible destitute for awhile and that would, without a doubt, force some revolutionary changes of local/state/federal Leviathan policies within respective departments. And from the rank and file themselves no less...hehe.

That would have some teeth, if the court enforced it, because the State otherwise will almost always shelter and indemnify its own rank and file agents to some degree, but especially the headmasters, at the expense of the hapless taxpayers who inevitably pay the price.

Fred said...

I have to throw a flag up on this one:

"As with any biker club, the Pagans probably included some disreputable people in their ranks. Derek was emphatically not one of them."

The Pagans are a violent MC heavily involved in trafficing of drugs and stolen property. One does not- nay, CANNOT just join the Pagans "several months before".
Pagans- who are still in a violent struggle against Hell's Angels for control of certain parts of the country (especially the NE), are not the types of people you walk up to, introduce yourself to, and fill out a membership application to join their "motorcycle club" so you can do a "Toy for Tots" run (it just so happens that Pagans and non-criminal MCs recently became more involved in Toy runs. The non-criminal for charity, the Pagans for PR. The Pagans piggy backed on these events and have become such a regular and unwelcome presence. No one will dare prohibit their participation).

It is improbable that an outlaw motorcycle gang with a well documented history and reputation of murder and mayhem would allow anyone with a clean criminal history to join them. He would be required to ride and hang with the club for a very long time. In fact, he would have been approached by the Pagans based on his deeds, reputation, and usefulness to the brotherhood before being trusted to be in their presence. BTW- a clean "official" criminal record is meaningless. The clever and trained elude detection and prosecution. Pagan's are good at what they do; murder, steal, etc.

Derek's military service in no way sanitizes his background. Currently the military is infested with organized crime figures. And I'm referring to the street type, not the D.C. type. For years they have expereinced problems with Bloods, Latin Kings, etc. One can even see the pics of street gang graffitti boasting a gang's presence in Iraq. Some troops/gang members pose in the pics they send to their homies. Quality control issue at the recruiting stations, I suppose.

So Derek's alleged upstanding citizen status as implied in the beginning of the essay makes me even more skeptical (can you believe that, rick?) of the rest of the story.

A sincere warninig to those who are unaware: If you see a Pagan wearing his colors, stay clear. He's on club business. And it's a dirty business. Even the Angels know that. You (and God forbid if you are with your family) should quietly and hastily leave the area. Their mere presence means trouble is brewing. Just because he is sitting in a diner or bellied up to the bar doesn't mean you are safe from gunfire from one of his brothers or a rival.

William N. Grigg said...

Fred, your caveat is appreciated, and the flag will remain on the field while the officials conduct a video review, as it were.

Here are a few things to consider in examining this story more deeply:

*In a previous blog entry ("How the War will `Follow Us Home'") I mentioned the fact that the fusion of military experience in Iraq with gang loyalties (ethnicity and religion being the most salient, but criminal affiliations qualify here as well) will result in some really nasty 4Gen Warfare-type problems.

What I didn't mention, and the Delaware story seems to illustrate, is the possibility of law enforcement exacerbating this problem by assuming the worst and -- literally -- going off half-cocked.

As Dixie Dog perceptively notes, things would have been better all around had Derek Hale found a more suitable group with whom to fraternize. But given that he had just left the employ of the world's most powerful and murderous criminal syndicate, the US Federal Government, I'd say joining an Outlaw Motorcycle Club was a strong step in the direction of going straight.

*It is possible, I suppose, that Derek Hale was talent-scouted by the Pagans before or during a tour in Iraq. But I could find nothing in the public record to suggest that he had ever been in trouble with the law.

The lawsuit describes in some detail the lengthy and intrusive surveillance to which Derek was subject; he never did anything to justify such police attention, let alone being summarily executed in a completely unjustified armed raid.

*About a year ago, while writing the Birch Blog, I recorded some of my impressions about of the tenebrous world of OMCs/OMGs (the essay, "Mongols and Feds," is still available here -- http://www.jbs.org/node/310; it probably won't remain there for long, given that unalloyed descriptions of State violence and lawlessness cause the heroes running the JBS to lose bladder control).

The earlier essay provided some of the reasons why I think the threat posed by OMCs/OMGs has been vastly exaggerated.

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

According to the article linked just under the graphic, Hale possessed a Virginia license to carry a concealed weapon. You can't get one if you have a criminal record. So, apparently his record was clean and I don't see what would attract the Pagans to him as Fred suggests.

Is it possible that Hale's local club was not criminal?

dixiedog said...

Another interesting, although off-topic, tidbit here is that those God-awful switchblades are soooo terrifying....oh my.

I actually obtained a few of those, and a so-called makeshift stiletto (not a true stiletto, but a pop out the end switchblade) over in Germany back in the late 80s and they ended up....somewhere. I'll leave it at that ;).

It's amazing that such a weapon is so feared and illegal to carry or even possess in some locales. I guess commoners fear malicious wounding and "slow" death by someone wielding an "automatic" knife (but not a conventional knife) at close quarters much more than they fear a few holes in the body and "quick" death from afar by someone wielding a gun.

Of course, the reality is that either result can be accomplished easily with either weapon. But the reality is not what most are interested in apparently.

As for me, I'd be a lot less fearful facing a knife-wielding thug than a gun-wielding one as an unarmed man.

Fred said...

I deliberately refrained from examining the use of force issue since 1) I couldn't get past the altar boy-like foundation being laid. A Pagan? Just sitting around minding his own business? Cops show up and gun him down for no reason? And 2) I am too long on the tooth on such issues as use of force since they require so much investigation (read time) to find out what happened. Frequently lawyers for the police department's insurance companies require events be handled a certain way or they risk losing coverage/representation.

I stuck with the Pagan issue because I have seen this type of thing many times. As a matter of fact, if someone was to collect every single article published in every newspaper around the nation that described the police shooting at someone, the majority (I'll guess 80%) will be replete with quotes from family members and friends saying, "He was such a nice guy. He'd give you the shirt off his back. He was going to start going to school for- fill in the blank. He would never- fill in the blank. This whole thing was a misunderstanding." This happens even with those who have official criminal records indicating they did time for this or that violent act. The story usually has with it a pretty picture taken BEFORE the crook turned bad. It's like there's a template on "reporters'" desktop where he fills in the blanks with addresses, names, and dates. The same holds true to prisons; nobody in prison committed a crime. They're ALL innocent.

Re image/backgroung: A Pagan is a Pagan. Yes, there are articulate and well educated Pagans. I've met some. They do have a pool of attorneys (membership dues must be pretty high to have so many on retainer in several states), and yes, many of them have full-time jobs. No matter how you slice their history and sugar coat the long list of their brothers doing hard time, they are an organized, violent bunch. The non-violent of them haven't been caught or are learning. Yes. A stereotype. Live Pagan, Die Pagan...as their colors proclaim (LPDP.

Re use of force: It's a rare occurrence for the police to shoot someone and no army of critics descends on the scene to point out what went wrong. The most justifiable application of deadly force could be caught on video tape and the defendant's attorney's phone (or his estate's attorney) would be jammed with so-called experts calling in offering their services for maximum pay-out. ANY, and I mean ANY, use of force by the police can be criticized to the point a jury would believe it to be excessive. It depends on the experts, attorneys, and jurors. And that's not even considering the debate on the supposed justification for The War on Whatever- (I don't disagree with most of you on these topics).

I know better than to rely on a newspaper article for accuracy and crime scene analysis.

These investigations take alot of time. An American citizen's life was taken. It's possible the cops will face criminal charges. Lawyers for all involved are running interference for their clients. Cops will answer only what their attorney says they should when questioned by the police administration, AG's office, et al. The City and State will do the same. It's name is The System.

Will touched alot of topics in this one. I merely focused on the first thing that smacked me in the face; a law-abiding Pagan sitting on the stoop of his incarcerated brother's home.

More as time permits. Wife is on me to get in gear.

A Radical Whig in Chattanooga said...

This is another good example of where the old John Birch Society campaign slogan should have been clarified to say "Support your Local Police and Keep them Independent of Federal Control, Influence, and Funding". The "War on Terror" and the war in Iraq is clearly coming home in that the police now are increasingly treating "suspects" as Terrorists or Insurgents who must be gunned down without mercy if they blink.

It might be appropriate to remember back in New Orleans, after the hurricane, their Governor bragged about the National Guard being "locked and loaded" and ready to blow away the bad guys. Citizens have become the enemy (otherwise, why were they disarmed?).

In regards to the young man joining an "Outlaw Motorcycle Club", remember that he was a former UCMC Sergeant who had served in Iraq. As such, joining the "OMC" was probably done to maintain the "machismo" which he had been formerly accustomed to. One should not assume that he joined the "OMC" in order to get involved with drug running, barring evidence to the contrary. Even if he did, I'm not aware that drug running is a capital offense which mandates violating due process and trial by jury.

Plainly, this is an example of the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Terror" coming together to where our "police" use lethal force at the drop of a hat.

Does anybody remember the Iranian student out in California who refused to show his ID in the school library? The cops handcuffed him and started dragging him out. As he was less than cooperative, they "tased" him, which incapacitated him (which was opposite the experience with Mr Rodney King, who had to be subdued by the police with billy clubs). They then "tased" the young man an additional 4 or 5 times because he was incapable of walking out of the library on his own. In the Deleware case, the "suspect" was also incapable of complying after repeated taser strikes, with fatal results.

Plainly we need to get involved in turning back the descent into tyranny. Will's "The Right Source" WEB site carries an Action Agenda. The JBS still maintains an Action Agenda.

Plainly, we need to do more that just preaching to the choir.

Anonymous said...

I hope these pigs feel like the big men they think they are. It takes a tough guy to taser an unarmed man multiple times. I can only hope that cops all over the country would receive the same brutality and terror that they dish out to people every day. Just because some asshole wears a badge does not give him the right to kill anyone they see fit. I pray for revolution. I pray for the day that all cops have targets on their backs instead of all of us civilians.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I am one of those new pussy police officers with 10 years on the job.

I have to laugh when I see guys talk BS about how something should have happened. Just "cuff the guy" Maybe some of these bloggers and posters have tried to cuff people maybe not. I have cuffed more than most. It is not as easy as it looks if someboody does not want to be cuffed.

I will tell you this. I use only necessary force. No cop I know ever want to hurt anybody and should not be labled as part of a death squad. It's funny how a Pagan can be a good guy just part of a bad group. Yea sure, he just got in for toys for tots. Some just join Latin Kings for the humanitarian work they do.

Are you guys serious? I am labeled a pussy by Billy but let's not assume anything about a Pagan or Hell's Angel.

Captain Kirk said...

Ok...for me this is real simple. Not withstanding this guy's association, whatever it might have been, with the Pagan's, he is tasered 3 times and then shot to death. Suppose instead of a taser, he was hit in the head 3 times with a night stick, sap, black-jack, etc. with sufficient force to render him mostly unconscious and then shot. My point is that in either case, he would have been unable to obey the officer's commands. I think that because the taser would not leave his head split open, that somehow this makes the shooting more palatable in the minds of some. The technology is different, but the basic result is the same. Botton line, the police aren't supposed to shoot someone who is incapacitated to the point of not being able to fight back...period. What those officers did is nothing short of a warrantless execution.

Sean B said...

"It's funny how a Pagan can be a good guy just part of a bad group"

It's funny how bad cops can be part of a good group.

Just because you may be a good cop doesn't mean all cops are good. You all have blinders on because it's "one of your own." Stereotypes exist for a reason and the phrase "blue wall of silence" didn't come into existence out of no where. Every cop is corrupt unless they have turned in and testified against every cop that has ever broken the law, including rolling a stop sign. When the police follow the law to the letter, then they can expect everyone else to do the same. Just take a brief look at the following and then tell me all cop shootings are good and warranted.

www.theagitator.com
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

Anonymous said...

The pigs on this board are hilarious. He joined a motorcycle club so he got what he deserved? Hilarious. Even if he was running drugs is it any less of a murder? Of course I'm sure all of the eye witnesses were lying...I mean after all...only cops tell the truth. No sorry. The pigs here just don't like motorcylce gangs because they are cutting in on their turf. They didn't pay their protection money for running drugs in their district so they had to pay.

William N. Grigg said...

Much as I admire the passionate conviction of comments like the foregoing -- and appreciate the Buckaroo Banzai reference (whatever happened to the planned sequel about the World Crime League?), I'd appreciate it if we could leave the twelve-letter Oedipal epithets -- or references to emunctory orifices -- out of future contributions.

We're all adults here, and since I hadn't stipulated any previous limits on how posters could express themselves here, I've let everything through to this point. Trust me, when I first read about this story I left my immediate surroundings pretty thoroughly clotted with language unsuitable to print. I just hope we can clean it up a touch.

dixiedog said...

Uh, fred, you generalize in your thinking WAY too much, just like the State's agents do these days. Contrary to the mass cultural "push" screaming otherwise, you MUST discriminate and be able to delineate the full picture when making decisions in life, especially in a line of work where your decisions mean life or death to another human-being by your own hands!

So one might retort that police have to protect their own life and limbs. Sure, but the entire premise (or it was back in a former era anyway) of joining the police was to protect and serve the PUBLIC, not YOURSELF. There's going to be risk in being a policeman just like being soldier, a deep-sea diver, a skyscraper window washer, etc., etc., but, like those other professions, you agreed to accept that risk!

I still hold fast to everything I wrote in the first post about Mr. Hale and his unfortunate decision to join an OMC for whatever the reason. Nevertheless, I discriminate and view every scenario in focus and on its own merits. The reality in THIS PARTICULAR scenario is that the police had ample manpower, not to mention "ample" firepower (too much!), to NOT be able to manage to arrest with minimal difficulty this three-time tased, vomiting, all but incapacitated, not to mention unarmed man!

Yet, they shot him dead on the steps. That's bald-faced murder no matter how you look at it, fred. Even now, by what's already known about the event and the witnesses who saw it firsthand, it's plain murder any way you look at it.

Someone mentioned RK above. Not the same kind of scenario by any measure. Rodney King was drunk, drugged, ran the highway at 100+mph, resisted arrest, and acted like a savage. Yet, despite all of that, he WAS NOT GUNNED DOWN!

Maybe some of these bloggers and posters have tried to cuff people maybe not. I have cuffed more than most. It is not as easy as it looks if someboody does not want to be cuffed.

marty, is your job supposed to EASY?? Just because you might have to "work at it a bit" doesn't mean you give up and say, "Aw f*** it! BANG! BANG! BANG! Now, he's limp and I don't have work at it anymore." Working in government, ANY government job, is never supposed to be a walk in the park; thereby attracting folk like magnets to work in it and choking liberty in the process.

Anonymous said...

dixie, I neer said I wanted my job to be easy, just that the act of cuffing a person not wanting to be cuffed is not easy.
I do not mind getting dirty or working at my job. I am a freedom loving committed Christian. Daily I try to follow the principles of my Faith and the Constitution at work.

In NYC we have 35,000 cops and only a handful police shootings each year. With hundreds cops getting hurt and assaulted each year this menas, that at least here, we are restrained and using less-lethal force.

I enjoy being a local cop for what I think are the right reasons. Help people protect their lives and property.

I am said to see the language and hatred by people hiding behind a computer when in so many ways I would agree with them on government and the constitution.

Fred said...

Couldn't wait to get back on!

OK. I tried to make clear my original heart burn with Will's essay; golden boy Pagan. But I ain't no good no how in getting to the point. Maybe I should've said, "Horrible. BTW, Pagans are bad people. I know. I know. That doesn't make it any better. Just a clarification."

Does it appear on the surface that this shooting was justified? Of course not. Hale had a right to due process. And so do the fuzz involved with this. Sometimes The System works. It did in Atlanta. The dirty cops' conspiracy couldn't withstand the test of time. Though I believe the Fairfax incident should have had a different outcome other than just another lawsuit for the taxpayers to swallow, the facts came out.

My initial belief of the instant case was an accidental discharge- again, since he was the only one who shot/believed Hale was a deadly force threat. As I mentioned in the blog comments regarding the Fairfax case, there were many quesions that needed answers. Most of them would apply here. Why were they there? Why SWAT? Etc. I believe most on this blog are on the same page on these issues. And I don't read the comments because I want to hear the same thing that I'm saying to myself when reading Will's material.

Of course these events should alarm all. But the way some speak the cops should have been mugged by some goons and sent to Gitmo without charges before the gun smoke clears. Patience.

I figure it a waste of my time to comment on militarization of police, DHS, and yes, billy beck- the lack of manliness of many cops these days. I've made my beliefs known on this blog before. (Instead of quivering p******, I say, "afraid to get their hands dirty", "rely on Tasers", etc.

I don't disagree that Hale shouldn't have been killed....based on what has been reported and what we know. Is there more to the story? We'll see, just as we did with the Atlanta case.

Just think: all I wanted to do was point out Pagan's are 1%ers. I do not- repeat- DO NOT think a Pagan has less rights than a non-Pagan, or even a member of - say CPUSA (I'm sure someone will call me on that one).
That's what I get for trying to clarify one issue within an essay containing many hot buttons.

billy beck, relax. Breathe. You are going to give yourself an ulcer.

Anonymous said...

These officers, at the very least, are guilty of manslaughter and, in my opinion, murder. They deserve to be incarcerated more that 75% of the people they lock up themselves.

jgmurphy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

18 month investigation= 32 people, a 160-count indictment involving drug trafficking, racketeering and gang activity.

In the investigation, police searched the homes of Pagans members and associates. Investigators recovered about 4 1/2 pounds of cocaine, 2.4 grams of hallucinogenic mushrooms, 21 Percocet pills, more than a pound of marijuana, firearms, two bulletproof vests and Pagans paraphernalia. Thirteen vehicles were seized and are subject to government forfeiture

Notice the Bullet proof vest! But i guess I am to assume they were planted also!

Anonymous said...

I hope those fucking pigs get the chair. They deserve it. People who abuse their authority are a scourge and need to be extinguished with EXTREME prejudgice.

liberranter said...

Folks, the only way crimes by agents of the State such as this are EVER going to stop is when ALL citizens reassert their 2nd Amendment right to bear arms - of ANY type, including heavy assault weapons. The only reason the pigs (yes, that's what these murderous uniformed thugscum are: PIGS) commit crimes like this with the impunity that they enjoy is that they know that the average citizen has neither the firepower nor the numbers at any given time to resist their murderous and illegal use of force. If the sheeple of this nation were to suddenly grow both functioning brain stems and backbones, as well as obtain an awareness of both their right as citizens and the constitutional limits inherent upon government use of force against person and property, the existence of armed death squads such as that which murdered Derek Hale would quickly evaporate and common courtesy and manners would make a magic and sudden appearance among the minions of "law enforcement." But until that day, be prepared to see many, many more Derek Hales murdered by statist droids run amok.

To all of the cops posting in this thread: If you do not want to abide the moniker "thug", "scum", "pig", or "murderer" and if you really and truly want to convince the public that what happened to Derek Hale was an "aberration" or "the work of a few bad apples", then stand up, speak out, and stop the violence, corruption, and rot that has infested your profession and cost you what little respect you and your profession have ever had! Otherwise, you are part of the problem. (Wager: You value your careers more than your principles [assuming that you have any], AND/OR you wholeheartedly defend lawlessness by agents of the State, to include murder of unarmed citizens. After all, power is what matters, not the protection of the lives, liberties, and property of the citizenry.)

Anonymous said...

> billy beck, relax. Breathe. You are going to give yourself an ulcer.

Fred, could you be a little more condescending?...Because some of us aren't real great with subtlety.

> Daily I try to follow the principles of my Faith and the Constitution at work.

Marty, either you follow the Constitution at your work or you do not; there is no 'try' -- especially when your masters can punish you for following what the "supreme Law of the Land" actually says, as opposed to what your masters wish to believe it says (and wish you to believe, and impose their belief upon you whether or no).

Mark Odell

Fred said...

"If the sheeple of this nation were to suddenly grow both functioning brain stems and backbones, as well as obtain an awareness of both their right as citizens and the constitutional limits....." Do you think that'll ever happen, liberranter? Do you think a time will come when American's will have an understanding of how our government was deliberately designed to function? I for one hope so. But I'm not so sure it'll happen. I'm frequently wrong. I'm hopeful I am on this one.

I started with just a correction about an MC, and mentioned in later posts there are many serious issues at hand here. One that Will touched on, and one that has been mentioned before on this blog is the underlying reasons for any of this happening in the first place. I know some will screech when they read this......here it comes...........the coppers are usually blue collar types, maybe an associates or BA from this or that college (dime a dozen), and they are doing the work of the bosses in State capitals. They are (sigh) a reflection of the population. I know, I know, "That doesn't make it right!" And you are right. That does not justify wrongdoing of any type. But guess what? If you can't convince your neighbor, brother, sister and uncle or even State goon who was elected to make laws about the underlying reasons for violent crime (War on Whatever's Fashionable this Year), what makes you think you'll convince cops to lay off by whacking them or their buddies. Sure. Taking a pricipled stand is honorable indeed. Your friends, family and the Lord will think highly of you when you are gone. Bellyaching with your friends over beers about what you read in the paper or on line and how horrible IT is will get you nothing but a good supply of rage....unless you put forth at least some effort to convince others. I'm sure many here already do that, but I suspect some do nothing but try to impress their friends with their knowledge of history.

Anyway, assume citizens take some type of stand. Let's use as an example something that I find particulalrly offensive and intrusive; DUI Checkpoints. Some guys have had enough of these and decide to do something about it. It gets ugly. Really ugly. As soon as that happens politicians will be tripping over each other to introduce this or that law to combat another "problem". Sound familiar? Same song and dance. Same strategy and tactics. And then things get turned up yet another notch- if that's even possible.

Let's face it. I know many of you have discussed these serious issues with those who are close to you. Some end up agreeing and spread the word. I call that a Rescue- like rescuing a dog from his cage in the pound. The others prefer the cozy incarceration and handouts from the kennel master. They are the ones who can't be bothered with history and the lessons it teaches us. They just wait for their treats and the green needle.

Priciples aren't the exclusive possession of cops or anyone else who has a position of "authority". All thinking people should have them and make decisions based on them. So I'm surprised more people don't "bunker" up waiting for the tax man to come get his pound of flesh. Even many of the most outspoken on taxes don't bother. Is it because they don't have principles?

Anonymous said...

Fred,

You appear a little bit disingenuous here. A man lost his life; that is everything he was; everything he is and everything he would or could have been; so has his family lost all.

Government and authority is granted as a privilege from the people for the benefit of the people. Therefore authority cannot serve itself or those given permission to act in authority. You have the same mindset of those that may have murdered this man. You are shooting first before asking question or using good judgment. I can be rationally and logically deducted that that you show a certain bias.

Often when a person is "tazored" they have a complete lack of body control; this is documented and known widely. All you have to do is search the news on the internet to bear this out. There is the occasional person who seems to not be as much affected when tasered. It is almost self-evident that is not the case here; certainly not by eyewitness account; certainly not by the police account.

That is unless a man in apparent distress, vomiting and moving about uncontrollably is to be feared and murdered. Where does anyone have the right to use lethal force upon someone who has not demonstrated or shown the ability to even threaten verbally; or move in a threatening manner much less not even pull his hands out of his pocket as he spoke to the police and told them so he could not physically comply? If I feel threatened by you lawfully, I can only respond according to the threat presented. I don’t get to taser or shoot you because you are moving at me in uncontrollable movement much less just standing. The government lawfully cannot act in authority above what the people cannot do to each other. The legalism of the force used is unlawful. This force was used in the most unconscionable way to violate the most sacred of self-evident rights; that is the right to “Life” or to live.

Police work can be a noble profession; however, it is dangerous work that requires much self-restraint. If you can’t stand the heat or the obvious threats involved with certain police causes lawful restrictions then get the hell out of the kitchen. I don’t want you working for me. To subtlety justify the unjustifiable as you are doing, you encourage the government to defend the unjustifiable.

Fred, I think you are either a “mismanager or collaborator for and of legalized plunder”. You’re here to promote a false sympathy for the murderers. Legalized plunder is the making of legal law that subverts and gives the appearance of lawful that steals the self-evident rights or Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness from the people. These self-evident rights are agreed to and by the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. These documents cannot grant any privileged authority above the self-evident rights retained by the people to government or law enforcement.

Well Fred, it seems that the government defense is a “legal” one; that is the legal right to use excessive and unrestricted force to take another man’s life as the government defines it for themselves and not what is a self-evident lawful prohibition otherwise. Isn’t funny how Hitler broke none of his legal laws. Before the world though, Hitler’s collaborators and mismanagers of tyranny before the lawful world court were found guilty of violating the self-evident.

I hope that we will see a court and jury that understands what is going on. I am somewhat doubtful; certainly, I am made doubtful by the words of former judge Andrew Napolitano. Judge Napolitano a man of conscience is now a “born again individualist”.

Andrew Judge Napolitano wrote in his book "Constitutional Chaos" in the introduction titled "Breaking the Law" pg. ix:
"Because it breaks the law, the government is not your friend...after witnessing first-hand how the criminal justice system works to subvert and shred the Constitution. You think you have rights that are guaranteed? Well think again.
Because the government breaks the law and denies it, the government is not your friend."

And pg. 181. “The government is simply stretching and twisting federal law and the Constitution in whatever way it sees fit for whatever contemporary need it may have.”

Contents of Part 1: “Rights and Liberties
1. Breaking the law to enforce it
2. Attacking the Innocent
3. Creating Crime
4. Grabbing Guns, Endangering Citizens
5. Filching Property
6. Gagging Free Speech
7. Bribing Witnesses, Buying Convictions
8. Assaulting the People
Part 3 The Hard Test: The War on Terror”
10 The Justices Department Terror Tactics

Fred, please spare us you collaborator sympathy for legalized murder.

Anonymous said...

Fred, you keep making it worse. Better quit while you're ahead.

This type of travesty turns even good citizens nasty toward the law enforcement establishment.

Any cop who defends this type of conduct is not a good cop at all. He's part of the problem.

Nothing wrong with that gang of cops that some serious jail time won't cure.

Anonymous said...

Find out who they are and then do the right thing. don't waste any time, just do it. Where the hell is Bug eyed jesse hijackson??

Fred said...

I'm going to apologize ahead of time for the condescending tone in a sentence or two in my last post. I read it after it posted.

I'm still new to this blogging thing (Pro Libertate is my first/only).

All too often I type, run an errand, answer the phone, type, kick the dog, finish a sentence, then send without proofreading. Too many distractions, too little time. I don't mean to sound nasty, and those who know me know it. Enough excuses.

Probably just giving it up.

Anonymous said...

I am not surprised by this incident.

I was recently stopped by the NYPD for driving down a street I wasn't supposed to. They were doing snow cleanup a short distance ahead but hadn't put up any signs or road blocks to indicate this. (It probably didn't help that I was an out-of-towner visiting with my wife to do some shopping.)

I was driving carefully and slowly — slow enough that I was stopped by an officer who pounded on the back of my car with his fist. I stopped immediately and was subjected to a level of venom and belligerence that left me speechless and, frankly, terrified. The officer was shouting in my face and demanding to see my papers "RIGHT NOW!" What if I didn't supply them quickly enough? Perhaps another "justifiable homicide" by one of New York's finest? This thought actually crossed my mind, and not without reason.

After handing over my papers, I was ordered by another officer to back into a side street, where throngs of pedestrians were crossing, and wait for the first officer to return. He became visibly angry and agitated when I refused to run over the pedestrians, which is what I would have had to do in order to back up.

In the end I was fined $100 and the whole experience — in particular, the menacing conduct of the police — left me feeling like the victim of an armed robbery. It was sickening. The officer could simply have told me the road was closed and asked me to turn around, as a normal human being would have done.

Now, it might seem silly to compare a traffic ticket to the blatant murder being discussed here. But the reason I bring this up is because the police treat ordinary people who make honest, innocent mistakes as The Enemy and terrorize them into submission. Imagine what happens to people they view as potential (even minor) threats?

When you are on the receiving end of a sudden, unexpected, threatening verbal assault by an armed officer of the state, it is hard even to move. You freeze up. Fight or flight kicks in but you know you can't do either.

It seems the balance of power in this country long ago shifted from the private citizen to the state and its bullying, thuggish, stupid, self-righteous mercenaries. We all might soon get a taste of what Mr. Hale went through.

Fred said...

anon2:

Perhaps you (or others) didn't catch my drift. If not, it's entirely my fault.

I mentioned this tragedy does not appear justified.

I do, however, believe everyone has a right to due process. Hale and the cops. If there was absolutely no other evidence or other information other than what the newspaper reported, and assuming the newspaper was verifiably accurate, this would land the coppper(s) in some hot water[assumption-not from that neck of the woods]. It can correctly be called a tragedy no matter how you slice it.

I believe my desire for due process for all is being taken as a defense for that which can not be defended. I do believe I am on the record above and on other posts saying thugs must be punished. I have described brutes in uniform as "big bad Johnny Law", "Tough Guy", etc. No sane liberty loving American would disagree- I hope.

For the record:
I do not condone- even subtly- what happened to Hale.
I do not believe ANYONE should be gunned down by Da Man unless Da Man or someone else is in fear/risk of death or serious bodily injury.
I do not believe Hale's Pagan affiliation qualifies him for an execution.
I do believe that since so many freedom loving individuals have declared open season on me that perhaps I did not make myself as clear as I should have from the beginning. Though I re-read what I wrote, I can't find anything that justifies what the cops did, or even tries to explain it away as justifiable homicide. I simply offered some insight on what can be expected, and how- sometimes- the story can change.

I agree, Anon2. I too mentioned a man lost his life. Did you see that? It should be taken seriously. It should be kept in its appropriate scope. I believe Stalin was attributed with saying, "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."

By the way, I can't seem to find the source of the below allegation:
Fred, I think you are either a “mismanager or collaborator for and of legalized plunder”. You’re here to promote a false sympathy for the murderers.

Please help me out on this so I can either set the record straight or do the honorable thing if I am in fact guilty of your accusation. Maybe it's my writing skill, or lack thereof. But justifying what they did? Come on.

Oh boy. I was just about to submit when I saw this gem:
Fred, please spare us you collaborator sympathy for legalized murder.

Come now. Where did you read that? I promise to spare "us" of my collaborator sympathies if you can show me where I expressed sympathy for murderers. And no- I am not devious or clever to the point I try to sneak stuff in to convince others. You don't have to read between the lines.

I look forward to your response. My decision is contrary to what sandra suggested. Sandra, I would quit. But my Daddy taught me nobody likes a quitter. That's why I still smoke. Probably sound advice from you though. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I used to read WNG years back and always enjoyed him. I hadn't read anything by him in quite some time and just today discovered this blog through the promotion all over the net of this article.
WOW, who knew he had such fire in him! The unfettered WNG is even better than the JBS WNG who was plenty good.
I like this guy, he is old-time America. God bless him.

dixiedog said...

fred, I'm probably not far removed in how you're thinking, now that you've made your position more clear ;).

This happens to be a true tidbit I have to agree with:

They are (sigh) a reflection of the population.

As you mentioned, and I've tried to convey to Will myself many, many times in past threads, the reality is that the State's agents are a reflection of the population at large. These folk don't come from another planet. They're your neighbors, people across the street, etc.

I'm thinking that many missed entirely the sarcasm at work in my first post. To make it crystal clear at this point, contrary to how it might have been (falsely) interpreted by some initially, I would object to a Derek Hale character being a policeman since, as I was trying to convey sarcastically throughout, he would probably act and behave in the same manner as his murderers, given that he had to at the very least possess a sympathetic mindset for outlaws if not a literal one himself, despite his clean record. He was a former soldier from the Iraq quagmire and combat war vets frequently migrate to LE afterwards. And I'm sure no commoners who knew him would've objected to him doing so as well.

However, he chose a privatized gangster outfit instead of the public-sector counterpart.

No big deal, right....sigh. Anyway...

One thing you mentioned, fred, that I disagree with completely is that I wouldn't draw an invisible demarcation between college folk (implying good and holy folk) and working class folk (implying shadowy inherently criminal figures). Sure, when it comes to violent crimes, college boys usually keep their hands clean, but that's only because they're smart enough, but more significantly, rich enough to pay others to do the dirty work and create convenient alibis as necessary. After all, it should be clear to all that "justice" means "just us." In other words, justice is selectively applied to just the more or less working-class commoners (us), not the richies.

The fact of the matter is that the culture en toto, the entire aggregate, is rotting and it's effects permeate through the educated set, the working class, as well as the ghetto and barrio class.

Anonymous said...

Fred,

Why I did the same thing you did I jumped the gun (I really didn't) because it took you three posts to consider or write that perhaps a man's life was wasted needlessly; that perhaps the officers were wrong. I wonder if you were to poll the readers would they understand that's what you wrote. Actually, I think they did understand.

You discredit the witnesses and the news reports as if somehow tainted or full of BS. I'm long in the tooth with your type of BS. Now if the news reporter had corroborated the witnesses report that this man instead had attacked the police officer would you cry out your same words in regards to the dead man now?! I'd like to see that. You’re trying to have your cake and eat it too.

I have no idea how you come up with the 80% figure as it seems to me more like 10% to me. I of course have no more real science to back that up than you do your figure. It means nothing. How often are you having police shooting bad guys where you live to remember such a statistic? In the metro city and surrounding area where I live, there is a population of close to a million people. I just don’t see that kind of statistic you made as reasonable. We have our police shooting at bad guys of course. I just don’t see that many times where people really say what you claim. Now if you were to say that the occasional time where those types of statements were made and much press followed I could buy that.

You look at your words where they went and for how long before you could write 21 words that finally acknowledges what is self-evident to everyone. Your words even if true are too little too late.

Here are your first real words Fred that show you think the officers might bear responsibility. It occurred in your 3rd post in. “Does it appear on the surface that this shooting was justified? Of course not. Hale had a right to due process.” Now you point this out in the beginning, even as a collaborator you sound like you understand and have concerns just on the article reported. Let me help you out some here. This might be a little better.

Fred starts his post this way:” Wow, from the looks of this it seems a man’s life might have been needlessly wasted. If this is how it plays out those officers should be arrested and sent to jail. However, I have some concerns as we’ve been down this road a time or two. Sometimes what even seems obvious after later consideration is not fact. Blah, Blah, Blah…and what about…”

Now you have little need for apologetics. It seems now that you might just be giving information and telling people not to rush to judgment one way or the other. By the way that is exactly the way I feel about it. I wasn’t there so the information may be biased or honestly misunderstood; there may be political agendas in play. You have to admit that if it is as the eyewitnesses claim and it is true he was just a person of interest he was simply murdered.

It wasn't until you got nailed several times that you finally found a word or two to give the appearance of understanding in favor of the man who may have been butchered as worse than a rabid dog. As I wrote, you’re disingenuous; clever with your words or actually lack of words in the beginning.

If one of the officers really said, “I’ll show you fu***** overkill!” that doesn’t bother you?! What disregard for the people he is to serve and protect this officer has. Isn’t it the people that give an officer the authority to serve in the first place? If it turns out these words were used this officer should be fired. Then again, this is all just first impressions and I haven’t come to any real conclusions.

I have no misgivings about people. I know good cops with reasonable attitudes towards there job and responsibilities. I know the others who think as though they were granted the power to do whatever they want or are just plain mean. I have been pulled over by both. Recently, I am aware of an officer in our city that suffered personal burns pulling a man out of a burning car and saving his life. Like everybody else, there are good ones, bad ones and commendable ones. We should not throw the baby out…however, we cannot afford the bad ones to have the power to kill or murder regardless of intent. We can not afford to allow government to cover up or lessen the impact of these mistakes or evil; so that the opportunity for such mistakes or otherwise are lessened. I think that people have a right to accountability by their government and not just some disingenuous 10 second sound-bite denying all.

Collaborators and mismanagers of the status quo do exactly this: Defend by downplaying any harm done or take any responsibility for it; downplay what is or seems self-evident or distract from it; a dismissive and arrogant attitude towards those that see it another way; complete failure from the beginning to show any real empathy toward those harmed; sounds almost like a defense attorneys defending the guilty.

Your words tried to paint this man as one that deserved what he got purely by circumstantial association while dismissing some of the more self-evident which is in favor of the man killed. Your characterizing or mischaracterizing seems deserved. If I am wrong well then I jumped the gun as you seemed to. I’m sure you can forgive me that. Perhaps in my 3rd post (if that occurs) I will see fit to find twenty-one words that use “of course” to show how genuine you really are. “Of course after what I written I don’t think you’ll care or believe it.

Anon2

Sean B said...

Fred,

I am a believer in due process also, but I also believe that those whose responsiblitity, job, oath, etc it is to uphold the law and due process only deserve the same that they dish out. There was no due process for Hale, there should be no due process (in public opinion, not court) for them. Unfortunately there will be no due process because there will be no process. The police will reinforce the wall and these officers will keep their jobs and their belief that they are above the law will be reinforced.

At this point in time, the facts are clear. We have heard from *eye* witnesses about what happened. I don't have to wait for the police's "we followed policy" version of the story. The cops killed a man in cold blood. And yes I say cops because everyone single one of them is a murderer, not just the one that pulled the trigger. If someone dies during the commission of a felony (illegal raid and assault with Taser), those committing the felony are also guilty of murder.

The ONLY justice that can come out of this is all of the officers being charged with murder/accessory to murder and losing their jobs/pensions/benefits. Anything less and it will be safer to hang with the Pagans than to trust the police.

Anonymous said...

Fred,

You wrote:
“Does it appear on the surface that this shooting was justified? Of course not. Hale had a right to due process.”

It's kind of funny it took me this long to see how hollow and shallow your words are.

Hale had a right to live.

Fred said...

Anon2:

Anon2 said...
Fred,

You wrote:
“Does it appear on the surface that this shooting was justified? Of course not. Hale had a right to due process.”
It's kind of funny it took me this long to see how hollow and shallow your words are.



I don't see what is so hollow or shallow about this. I was restating the obvious. You pulled this quote in one of your earlier posts.

I assumed (apparantly falsely) that folks on this blog agreed on most- if not all- issues. As I have said above my initial contribution to this passionate and lively discussion of important affairs was nothing more than a clarification of what the Pagans are all about. That was all! Yet you mention it took me 3 whole posts to mention how the loss of Hale's life was wrong. I thought this would be a no-brainer. Guess not.

If you are trying to use my use of "due process" against me, I have only the following to say: All Americans are entitled to it. The taking of your life by the government- or anyone else-is the ULTIMATE seizure of something precious. This can not be done without due process, or a situation you create that forces someone to defend themselves from death or serious bodily injury (I'll add....if the agent of the government-or anyone else- is legally present and did not CREATE the need for the use of deadly force by his presence). This is especially important in the 3rd District. If memory serves DE is in the 3rd-could be wrong.

Now we're talking current law. Not pre-Incorporation Doctrine, or anyting else modern day Attorneys At Law even care to discuss/research.

You said-and I think I'm working backwards....:

It wasn't until you got nailed several times that you finally found a word or two to give the appearance of understanding in favor of the man who may have been butchered as worse than a rabid dog. As I wrote, you’re disingenuous; clever with your words or actually lack of words in the beginning.

Yeah, I got nailed. I think I got nailed by some folks I happen to have some respect for based on previous experience. This is why I tried to clarify in my oh so lame 3rd post you mentioned, where I FINALLY acknowledged the obvious tragedy at hand; the loss of life. Please. If you haven't picked up on it yet, I'm nowhere near clever.

Anyway....DD- I'm not sure I know where you and I disagree- You said
:
One thing you mentioned, fred, that I disagree with completely is that I wouldn't draw an invisible demarcation between college folk (implying good and holy folk) and working class folk (implying shadowy inherently criminal figures).

My post:coppers are usually blue collar types, maybe an associates or BA from this or that college (dime a dozen), and they are doing the work of the bosses in State capitals.

Was this the one you were referring to? I can't keep track! Please point it out if there was another.

My point was/is that there is a trend nationwide to require college degrees for police gigs. Now this could be because high school so poorly prepares anyone for life that a college degree is the new equivalent of a high school diploma. I do not know.

But what I do know is all who aspire to get a cop gig will get that degree if it's needed. The product is a partial merger of those who were going to get the degree anyway, and those who weren't even considering it until a guvimint jod made it a requirement. I'm not so sure this is a wise requirement, as I have said in posts on previous occasions. I think it's wise to keep police work blue collar (because that's what it is and should be IMHO) rather than embrace a new "police professionalism" or whatever else academics believe is important. My experience is there seems to be less of an entitlement attitude among the working class types, therefore less arrogance when things don't go their way. I believe this might be because a working man fits in better in this environment because, well- round pegs in round holes. Nevertheless, any who want the job are striving for a blue collar gig whether they know it or not, hence the blue collar tag. This is in no way a scientific observation. Just something I and others have noticed. There are some very fine exceptions.

All of the above will soon be meaningless. The Republic is rotting, I agree. Standards for everything have lowered and the decay is omnipresent. Who will be the lawmen in 10 or 20 years?

Fred's disclaimer to all: Fred in no way considers a college education a bad thing. Fred believes book learnin is good and partakes in it. Fred does NOT consider a college eduacted man better nor worse than a man who has not had the opportunity nor desire to attend college.

p.s. have we reached a record yet on comments?

Anonymous said...

Fred,

You talk about the obvious.

This is my first visit to this blog. By the other responses here would it be reasonable and logical (obvious) for me to view your words as I do? If I were the only one writing this, you might have a point.

Oh, I like the use of your words “no-brainer”. Thank you for humbling yourself to those of us lacking in brains. Perhaps you might clean and set the table first before you throw food for thought on it first. That’s my “no-brainer”. Once again, you're in the apologetics mode because, and as I wrote earlier, you could have at least set the table for what might have been just information to be considered.

Your most recent words once again have not openly conveyed an idea of horror or that you feel sickened by what occurred to Hale. Your words have polarized and any so-called good message is completely lost on me; I don't know about the rest here. You sound like a defense attorney having an academic discussion as to why Mr. Hale was unfortunately killed and not to the horrors of a man who may have been murdered. You have not displayed one bit of empathy for the loss of his life. That is an “obvious” “no-brainer”.

I am angered, horrified, outraged that, as described, a man was cut down as if less-than-an animal. I am further angered, horrified, outraged and livid by legal political posturing as if only academic discussion and not so much about blood spilled; the unnecessary loss of life; those affected by the loss and any responsibility.

I think you did look for understanding as to why you are getting such negative feedback. From my point of view, I've done the best that I can to give you feedback.

Look at it from a point of politics. Even if Hillary Clinton were to become God's chosen prophet for the upcoming election, I don't think she'll become a guest speaker at the Republican presidential convention. (I'm not endorsing any party just making a point. In fact I am a born again individualist. I do think that Rod Paul would be a good choice regardless of his present party affiliation.)

I think until your words identify with the "obvious" you’re just spitting into the wind.

Do you realize that mad dogs and wild animals that are a threat to society are given every chance to be captured alive or deterred before killing them. It is as if you think of Mr. Hale as less-than-human or animal. By the story and facts given can you say that Mr. Hale was treated as if he had even the rights of animals?! No but, because of his association with ill reputes, as you wrote he deserved less right to live or due process of even animals. “Of course” you never actually say this do you? However, your first and longest writing are about an association with the “Pagans”. So if by subtle inference, “he got what he deserved” or “he shouldn’t have been doin’ that”. That is diminishing the evil and deterring from the real obvious and self-evident.

Even if Mr. Hale were the ring leader of the Pagans and there was a lawful warrant, is it your position that Mr. Hale a man tasered 3 times, vomiting, walking in an uncontrollable manner, claiming he could not move his arms should be shot 3 times and killed?! Is this the officer’s first experience with someone being tasered?!

“Of course” you've written otherwise regarding "due process" or the legalism of it. In my anger toward your callous, hollow and shallow words, I still can't read anything else.

Mr. Hale simply had a right to live

Anon2

I will not repeat myself anymore on the subject of Fred. I have been clear enough.

Anonymous said...

I love this blog, but I am quite surprised at the language allowed - especially after the host requested the language be cleaned up. Why aren't you editing the posts, Will?

William N. Grigg said...

Anonymous, I've admittedly been less than diligent in editing this thread. For future reference I'm going to have to post some basic rules of decorum, but even though I have plenary authority over my own forum I'd prefer not to impose ex post facto rules.

Anonymous said...

At 8:02 PM , Fred said...
-----
For the record:
I do not condone- even subtly- what happened to Hale.
I do not believe ANYONE should be gunned down by Da Man unless Da Man or someone else is in fear/risk of death or serious bodily injury.
I do not believe Hale's Pagan affiliation qualifies him for an execution.
------

For the record even though I saw these words before I never read them or processed them in my mind until now. I was still angered about the earlier posts.

I still think that much of this may have been avoided if these words or similar are mentioned in your first post.

Government collaborators or mismanagers post and check regularly in chat rooms or forums where improper government authority is challenged. I use to check the "who visited log" on one particular site where that information was available. All sorts of people up to the DOJ looked in regularly.

Collaborators in my mind are any who support "legalized plunder"; that is the making of unlawful as legal or the lawful as illegal by legislation at the expense of Life, Liberty, Property and the Pursuit of Happiness.

As with the many collaborators none I’ve dealt with ever consider they are never wrong or ever apologized. I must admit you have done both the best you can from your point of view. Quite frankly if I had not been so impassioned by your first words in retrospect I would have dropped the discussion after your 8:02 post.

So now, I offer my apology to you Fred and anyone else that read my later comments for the excess of words provided by me; that surely must have appeared as piling on, badgering and trying to keep an argument going for no good reason. Please forgive me.

William,

If you would delete the following posts of mine, it would be appreciated; they add nothing to the discussion after Fred’s 8:02 PM post.

1) At 11:21 PM , Anon2 said...
2) At 7:39 PM , Anon2 said...
3) At 12:00 PM , Anonymous said...
Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Marty? I grew up with cops from all different parts in the service to the public, State patrol, County Sheriffs and City police.

And nearly none of you folks have a clue what kind of law you even serve now a days. None of the police I ever knew would of taken the actions in this case as what was done by these officers, Never!

Most of you Modern Cops don't even take a second to even consider if you are breaking the US constitutional laws of this Land & BoR, in delving out justice onto your own neighbors.

You're falling under the same trance as our troops are. We are only doing what we are told.

Take your blinders off Marty!

The Law of the land isn't what it's suppose to be, and statutes and acts are not laws Marty!

Get a Blacks law dictionary Marty.

What does register mean Marty? It means, "To Beg"

Anonymous said...

Marty? I grew up with cops from all different parts in the service to the public, State patrol, County Sheriffs and City police.

And nearly none of you folks have a clue what kind of law you even serve now a days. None of the police I ever knew would of taken the actions in this case as what was done by these officers, Never!

Most of you Modern Cops don't even take a second to even consider if you are breaking the US constitutional laws of this Land & BoR, in delving out justice onto your own neighbors.

You're falling under the same trance as our troops are. We are only doing what we are told.

Take your blinders off Marty!

The Law of the land isn't what it's suppose to be, and statutes and acts are not laws Marty!

Get a Blacks law dictionary Marty.

What does register mean Marty? It means, "To Beg"

Anonymous said...

I would like to see the other, hopefully less dramatisized, version of the events.

William N. Grigg said...

You know what? I'd LOVE to see the "official version" of this event, as soon as the people responsible for killing Derek Hale agree on one. Admittedly, they're at something of a disadvantage, given that 1) Derek wasn't carrying a firearm; 2) all of the eyewitnesses on the scene agree there was NO REASON to shoot him; and 3) the police establishment has been caught in a lie trying to create a plausible cover story for this event.

So by all means, let the "official" side of the story be heard -- preferably from the people directly involved in this incident, on the witness stand, under oath and the appropriate penalties for perjury.

I'd love to see a clinical, dispassionate examination of this matter through the adversarial process. But it's going to be pretty difficult to wring the drama from a story involving the killing of a young Marine combat veteran and step-father to two children who was gunned down by police for no damn reason.

Fred said...

Anon2:

I have thought ever since I came upon this blog the readers were probably more inclined than not to agree with the thrust of whatever Will put forth.

Being a neophyte with this method of communication (blog) has taught me plenty; never assume that readers will ingest and agree with the point of Will's essay. I figured readers would discuss/dispute little tidbits found therein, but would still agree with the major points. I think what invited The War on Fred more than anything else was the length of my description of Pagans in my earlier posts.

I admire the fire you have in your belly. I'm sure my earlier posts did nothing but add fuel to that fire. Anyone attempting to harbor a similar inferno to mine when it comes to the right topics is OK with me.

I offer my apologies for not starting my earliest posts with some words that would've informed the reader that this appears to be yet another tragedy at the hands of government.

I will, however, stand by my distrust of what the newspapers report. I just can't do it. Who said, "Believe none of what hear, and half of what you see."?

I think this event will be brought into the light just as the Atlanta case was. The last I heard they're looking at three of them being brought up on murder charges. Stay tuned........

Would've got back sooner, but I was laying tile past few days. The weather hasn't been kind to my joints.

Fred said...

Will said:

So by all means, let the "official" side of the story be heard -- preferably from the people directly involved in this incident, on the witness stand, under oath and the appropriate penalties for perjury.

I agree. All involved and those who witnessed it should be there to put it all on the table for a jury. What goes down in the courtroom might be the closest thing anyone will ever get to the "official story". Heck, the "official story" might give rise to even more questions/suspicions.

Unknown said...

It is interesting how most lefties, especially those who seem to define themselves as a function of George Bush, want citizens disarmed, as do many police. Are you sure you are against a police state, or are you one of it's primary proponents?

Anonymous said...

RE:William N. Grigg-

I agree Will. As far to often is the Case these days. It is becoming a prevailent item to see people jusy suspected of being dangerous gunned down by Police, in the name of their self preservation in the line of duty. But what is even more apparent is the increase in those who are killed without any provacation against the arresting officers?
Notice to this isn't just happening to ceratin minority groups. It's happening to everyone .
Federal Government intrusions into policing matters, in communities is stoking a Kettle of Rotten.

Police gun down suspected persons for suspected crimes, yet our streets run rampant with gangs and drug dealers and rapists, and Murderers which seem to cease without end. If the people had a right to defend themselves. The good God fearing people, would prevail eventually!

Anonymous said...

Delware Police should join foices with the Fairfax County Police Depart (Virginia). Fairfax P.D. shot and murdered an unarmed Doctor named Sal Culosi. The murdering police officer was only given a 3 week paid leave of absence. See www.justiceforsal.com

Anonymous said...

Jesus Murphy. Every time I read a story like this I have to restrain myself from picking up a rifle.

Anonymous said...

The only way to get rid of those types of cops is by killing them or having enough local political connections to get them fired. Unfortunately most people don't have the connections for the latter. If that was my fiend or brother I would have to pay Mr. Browns family a visit and show him how it feels.

Anonymous said...

A way to help offset rogue police officers is to have them pay into an insurance policy as like that of our local physicians; malpractice. If an offending officer, like a physician, has too many claims against him, the said officer cannot pay for insurance and can no longer practice/be employed. This also may help keep rogue officers that commit offenses in one jurisdiction from transfering to another jurisdiction that has no knowledge of the other offenses. JMO!

Anonymous said...

I have just been released from Prison after one year as one of the indicted associates of Derek Hale. And until I saw this link I thought that Superintendant MacLeish's tactics to Distract and Misdirect attention from Derek's murder had been successful. Thank you for this stunning presentation of the facts and the truth.
It is a matter of record in DE that there has Never been a shooting by police which has been found to be unwarrented by their internal investigations.
Attorney General "Beau" Biden; Son of Presidential Candidate and Delaware incumbant US Senator Joe Biden is complicit in a Conspiracy with the DSP to Distort and Fabricate and Subvert evidence in order to make this go away.
Derek was my friend and my neighbor.
His wife Elaine tells me the story of how their daughter woke in the dead of night screaming; "The Police Are Coming to Kill Us".
I don't think that SuperIntendant MacLeish's PR efforts will convince that small child.
She will forever fear and hate police. Welcome to Delaware, the Uganda of the Americas.

Roy

William N. Grigg said...

Roy -- assuming that you come back and read this thread -- could you please get in touch with me directly? My e-mail is WNGrigg [at] msn [dot] com.

Anonymous said...

Ok, first off did the Wilmington Police Department's vice team act improperly and disobey their training yes. But on the other hand all of you people INCLUDING the author I'd like to know were you there did you see this happen? I highly and I do mean highly doubt that you did. So who are you to say how the police did or did not react? It's like the old addage "Do you believe everything thing you hear", well obviously you do.

For everyone criticizing police officers, I'm curious how many of you are one? I can ZERO of you are or you'd be a little more perceptive, on how dangerous it is to do the job. So for those of you how are "slamming" the cops do the job then you'll have room to talk.

As for the weapons that were allegedly on Hale's body; pepper spray that can be bought in any sporting good store, and switch blade are a weapon not to mention still ILLEGAL. By the way for the comments similar to "its just a knife" A person with a knife can is considered lethal within 15feet because it takes the average human under 2 seconds to close the distance. While a gun has range the police have vests, the body armor doesn't stop knives for those of you who are ballistic and personal safety experts.

Oh and one last thing to join a gang like that you have to be a prospect first and prospects do the gang's dirty work. Just some food for thought for the experts and anti governmental idiots out there.

Anonymous said...

you people care now?oh how sweet..this has been happening to normal US citizens for years lol enjoy your stinking pitt of fail.now that they care not what tie you wear,it is a problem..to late..

Anonymous said...

well what really sucks is that a very high percentage of california police are very brutal. and many times more than others they use excessive brutal force. in this case it sucks that it happened to a person that thought this was a good country to fight for. too bad he was MURDERED by one of his own.

poor guy and infront of his family. if we were related there would be some serious consequences for those involved.

CHOOCH----------- said...

The murder of Mr. Hale was a damm shame not to mention a slap in the face to any U.S. veteran or tax paying citizen. Even a blind man can see that there’s a problem with a system that would allow a group of trigger happy weekend warriors (who’s normal 9 to 5 excitement consists writing a speeding to some seventeen year old) to unjustly execute an innocent man solely based on his club affiliation.

I’ve grown up around the pagans my whole life, and in my opinion I would sooner trust my life with a member of the Pagans M,C, rather than any officer of the law.

Anonymous said...

The murder of Mr. Hale was a damm shame not to mention a slap in the face to any U.S. veteran or tax paying citizen. Even a blind man can see there is something wrong with a system that would allow a group of trigger happy weekend warriors (who’s normal 9 to 5 excitement consists of a speeding ticket to some seventeen year old) to execute an innocent man solely based on his club affiliation.

I’ve grown up and lived around pagans my whole life, and in my opinion I would sooner trust my life (that’s right MY LIFE) in the hands of a member of the P, M, C, rather than an officer of the law.

To Mr. Hale, R.I.P. I only hope that your family & brothers (both U.S.M.C. & P.M.C.) win the fight and proper justice will served to the individuals responsible for your murder.
P,F,F,P

Anonymous said...

This isn't rare in Wilmington. The police and government do what they want there, and because outside parties won't involve themselves in the affairs of this corrupt place, they get away with them.