Thursday, October 4, 2007

(Update 6) Carol Anne Gotbaum: Victim Of Death By Government

Thanks to Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D., I've been given a link to the Phoenix PD report on Carol Anne Gotbaum's arrest, detention, and death.

[See the fourth update below]

These three things I know for sure:

*I am not of Scandinavian ancestry.

*There is no difference between "good" flan and "bad" flan.*

*Carol Anne Gotbaum did not strangle herself with the handcuffs that were used to restrain her.

Thus it follows that the Phoenix Police Department, which claimed that the tiny, 45-year-old mother of three small children somehow choked herself on the cuffs, is concealing the truth about what killed her.

Mrs. Gotbaum, who was on mood stabilizing drugs (which she hadn't taken that morning), was detained at Phoenix's Sky Harbor Airport en route to a very expensive alcohol rehabilitation clinic in Tucson.

Her family contact hadn't met her there, as he was supposed to, which didn't improve her mood. She had been singled out by the TSA groper squad for individualized molestation, which likewise helped to undermine her serenity. Carol Anne had reportedly attempted suicide in New York a year ago, which suggests that she was severely troubled and desperately seeking help.

By the time the police arrived, Gotbaum was in the middle of a full-orbed breakdown.

"They're not letting me on!" she exclaimed in a cellphone call to her husband Noah just before her arrest. "It's all falling apart." Noah called US Airways officials to plead on behalf of his wife: "It will be okay. She just needs to take her medication."

It was clearly a medical crisis, not a security issue. But those running the Homeland Security State in which we've been sentenced to live insist on treating those situations identically. The last time an airline customer suffered a breakdown, he was gunned down by federal air marshals.

After mild-mannered missionary Rigoberto Alpizar was murdered at the Miami Airport in November 2005, the air marshals insisted that the victim had made a bomb threat ... which was, you know, audible only to the specially trained air marshals, which is, like, you know, why the other passengers didn't hear it, and stuff.

The truth is that Alpizar, who also suffered from a mood disorder, had a panic attack, which proved to be fatal because it prompted lethal panic on the part of people indoctrinated to see the public as the enemy. So perhaps it's a minor miracle that Mrs. Gotbaum survived long enough to be put into a detention cell at the airport, rather than being capped where she stood.

Then again, it is possible -- I'd say likely -- that she suffered a lethal injury when the police (it's not clear how many) tackled her to the ground, one of them putting his knee into her back.

Consider: Mrs. Gotbaum was a small-boned, petite woman of 45 who weighed less than 110 pounds. One eyewitness described the police assault on her as resembling a "football tackle," followed by the use of a knee in the back as a restraint.

[Update: Newly released surveillance video shows Mrs. Gotbaum going to the floor while surrounded by four officers. The police spokesman narrating the film says that the officers "went to the ground" with her to protect her from injury. It looks like she sagged, rather than being forced to the floor, but it's difficult to tell for sure how she ended up lying prone on her stomach. What I find really peculiar is the idea that the best way to calm down a hysterical and obviously harmless woman is to have her surrounded by large armed men who seize her and attempt to handcuff her -- particularly when the specific source of her anxiety is the idea that she had been mistaken for a terrorist.]

She was dragged away to a holding cell, where she was chained to a bench by a sixteen inch chain. She died about fifteen minutes later.

Is it possible that the victim suffered a broken rib, or even a punctured lung?

[Update: Although there is no audio available for the surveillance footage, the police narrator claims, on the basis of witness accounts, that Mrs. Gotbaum was "screaming at the top of her lungs" while being dragged away to detention. This is understandable. It also more or less shoots down my initial speculation about a punctured lung.]

The question is purely speculative, of course. But it is much more plausible than the official police explanation, which emits the signature bouquet of bovine residue.

Anybody who has had his or her hands cuffed behind the back (as someone who has been arrested in two countries and threatened with arrest in a third, I have had that experience) should understand that the feat of contortionism required for Mrs. Gotbaum to die in the fashion the police described was impossible. Well, unless she managed somehow to duplicate the experiment that turned Reed Richards into Mr. Fantastic.

And the story gets even less plausible from there, beginning with the inconsistency in police descriptions of the death scene: Was the chain that supposedly strangled Mrs. Gotbaum wrapped "around" her throat, or "pressed" against it? The former might explain asphyxiation, the latter probably wouldn't, and both descriptions have been offered by the police.

The "official" autopsy wasn't deferred, as the family had requested, until Dr. Cyril Wecht, the independent pathologist they had hired, could be on hand as an observer.

The police refused to defer the "official" autopsy. Michael Manning, the family's attorney, was present at the official autopsy and reported seeing "numerous bruises all over her body."

Dr. Michael Baden, a noted forensic pathologist, told the New York Daily News: "There were a number of things that were done wrong here. If she's asphyxiated, someone else did it." On the basis of what's known, Dr. Baden concludes, "the most likely cause of death has to do with asphyxia and could be a result of too much pressure on her chest when they were putting on the handcuffs and the shackles."

[Second update: Manning, the Gotbaum family's attorney, has put into play the idea that someone may have used the chain on Carole Anne's handcuffs to strangle her. This is possibly nothing more than an attempt by a very aggressive lawyer to tune public opinion in advance of a lawsuit, perhaps as a means of extracting a very large settlement. But it may have the effect of pushing Phoenix authorities away from the entirely implausible story that she somehow strangled herself. Another possibility raised in this story is that Carole was killed by "compressional asphyxia" as a result of the knee to her back. But this doesn't really seem likely, since she was able to walk and put up some resistance as she was dragged away to the detention cell. That being said, it's possible that some serious and ultimately life-ending injury was sustained at the bottom of the police scrum.]

She was shackled because, as I've pointed out elsewhere, for those enforcing the will of the Homeland Security State, the default setting is "overkill." Dr. Baden points out, correctly, that in Mrs. Gotbaum's mental state she should have been taken to a hospital, not a holding cell, and she should not be left alone.

There was no security risk here. The heroes in blue could have handled an admittedly frantic 105-pound woman without forming a rugby scrum, grinding her face into the floor, and cuffing her hands behind her back. They did this because they're permitted to, not because it was necessary.

So Carole Anne is dead, and her three small children are now motherless.

Whatever proves to be the officially defined cause of Carol Anne Gotbaum's death, it happened because of the tactics used by the Homeland Security State -- the needlessly invasive and time-consuming TSA screening, the unjustified use of brutal force by the police, and the culpable ineptitude displayed by both agencies in dealing with what was obviously a medical crisis, not a security threat.

This much we can know for sure.


Steve Lemons of the Phoenix New Times, a left-leaning independent weekly, reports on the Phoenix PD press conference during which the surveillance video was shown. The most important detail in Clemons' report is the fact that Noah Gotbaum called the police subsequent to the arrest -- actually, almost simultaneously with the arrest -- to warn them that his wife, in addition to having problems with alcohol, was clinically depressive and suicidal: "[T]he police have to understand that they're not dealing with someone who's just been drinking on [a] flight and acting rowdy. That's not what's going on here."

This being the case, there was no excuse at all for her to be left alone in the detention cell for any period of time. If the Phoenix PD sticks with the story that Gotbaum somehow killed herself, the fact they were warned about her suicidal condition seals the case for official culpability of some kind. And it gets worse from there if the story changes, of course.

FOURTH UPDATE: "I'll have some spring rolls with that...."

Once again I'm in the position of retailing the investigative work of Steve Lemons from the New Times, who has examined the police report of the events leading up to, and surrounding, the death of Carol Anne Gotbaum. The most revealing tidbit in his latest account is the description of county pathologist Dr. Ann Bucholtz's puzzled efforts to figure out how Carol Anne and supposedly strangled herself. Dr. Bucholtz, who inspected the detention cell shortly after Carol Anne's death, noted that she was about the same size and build as the victim.

Also noteworthy is the additional detail that Noah's anguished phone call to the police warning that in arresting his clinically depressive wife, they were "really playing with fire right now," emphasizing that she was suicidal and that the police were dealing with "a medical emergency."

How did the ever-alert police dispatcher react to this urgent, life-and-death intelligence?

"I'll have some spring rolls with that."

That comment was made with reference to an order the dispatcher had placed for Chinese food between anguished phone calls from Noah Gotbaum as his wife was dying in police custody.

To serve and protect, y'all.

FIFTH UPDATE: "Tell 'em, uh, you're gonna ... call him right back...."

The title of this update is taken from a transcribed comment made by Lt. Gehlbach of the Phoenix PD, instructing the dispatcher to find some way of putting off Noah Gotbaum's desperate phone calls. At that point, Noah was still offering the police urgent advice on how to deal with his suicidal wife, and he doesn't know that his wife is already dead. The police played keep-away with that fact for quite a while; and judging from the fact that they ordered Chinese food for delivery during the interval, the fact that they were stringing along a desperate husband whose wife had just died in their custody didn't seem to put them off their feed.

Reading the police report it becomes clear that what precipitated Carol Anne's fatal breakdown was the stupid intransigence of both the TSA and Mesa Air, the latter being the regional airline that was supposed to take Carol to the rehabilitation clinic at Cottonwoods Hospital. It doesn't help that she somehow wasn't able to make connections with David Watson, the close family friend who was supposed to meet her at Sky Harbor Airport.

Carol wasn't permitted to board the connecting flight because she was late, apparently on account of a TSA screening.
According to the witness statement of TSA supervisor Thomas Greenlaw, "The ticket agent told [him] that [Carol] started making a commotion when she missed her flight. A male passenger volunteered to give up his boarding pass but the ticket agent told him they could not do that because it would be a security breech [sic]. The woman started yelling she was not a terrorist and took off running up the concourse."

Greenlaw, who witnessed the arrest, reports that the police "gently took [Carol] to the floor" -- which squares with another eyewitness account that Carol was "tackled," rather than sagging of her own volition. While she was being swarmed by armed men who wanted to yank her arms behind her back and cuff her wrists, Carol -- according to Greenlaw -- was screaming: "I'm not a terrorist, I'm a f*****g American!"

She wasn't a terrorist, simply (as she told the police who arrested her) a "depressed, pathetic housewife." And within a few minutes of saying so, she was needlessly dead.

It doesn't take a background in intelligence analysis to recognize that a woman like Carol Anne Gotbaum was not a terrorist or a threat of any kind. And it doesn't take a medical degree to recognize that a woman behaving as she did needed to go to a hospital immediately, rather than being gang-tackled, handcuffed, and then chained to a bench like a murder suspect.

Dealing with a situation of this sort requires patience, discretion, and individual initiative. Police officers a generation ago could have handled this matter in a more suitable fashion; there are, no doubt, many veteran police officers around today who could have done so as well. But the traits listed above have no place in the Homeland Security apparatus that now controls our police.

(Owing to some family medical crises of my own -- Korrin's not in the hospital again, although she's had a rough week; I had to take our two-year-old Sophia emergency room yesterday, but she's doing better -- I'm a bit tardy with this somewhat sketchy update.)


The autopsy report (.pdf) from Maricopa County Medical Examiner Ann L. Bucholtz has been published. The official conclusion is that Anne Gotbaum died of accidental "asphyxia by hanging," with "acute ethanol and prescription medication intoxication" acting as "[c]ontributing factors."

Reading the report without the requisite medical background, I was struck by the fact that Dr. Bucholtz's findings did nothing to clear up the most perplexing questions in this tragic case. It is still difficult at best to imagine how a woman could strangle herself with handcuffs fastened behind her back, let alone manage to "hang" herself with them.

Odder still is the fact that after somehow "hanging" herself, Carol was found (per the summary at the end of Bucholtz's report) in what the guard "thought was initially a sleeping position." Assuming that she managed to hang herself, how did she end up in that posture?

The toxicology findings demonstrate that Carol, who was headed for rehab, should not have been left alone. A summary of a recently released police report indicates that it was Carol's choice to fly by herself from New York to Arizona, but obviously it would have been better had her husband insisted on accompanying her, and making appropriate arrangements for the temporary care of their children.

The same summary makes it pretty clear that there was a brief interval following Carol's missed connection to Tucson when it may have been possible to calm her down and regain control of the situation: She was regaining her composure with the help of a female TSA agent when the police showed up. Their arrival prompted her to start yelling and flailing her arms again. From there things degenerated pretty quickly.

What if the police had told Carol they weren't going to arrest her, that they simply wanted her to calm down? What if they had offered
assistance, rather than immediate detention? In what passes for the minds of some people, even to make this suggestion is impermissible, since we're not permitted to second-guess the decisions of people wearing a government-issued costume. To the same people, second-guessing the decisions of the grieving father in this case is mandatory, however.

One last personal note: In the comment thread below, an individual of the sort described immediately above very generously invited me to "shut the f*ck up." To him I reply: My city of residence is published in this blog, and you no doubt know how to operate Google. You're cordially invited to come out here at your convenience and
make me "shut the f*ck" up.

*Lest I be accused of plagiarism, rather than understood to be offering an homage, I have to credit David Mamet for this line from my favorite political satire.

On Another Note ...

It must be said that any day I manage to aggravate a Nazi is a day not wasted. Jump over to my other blog (particularly the comments thread in the most recent entry) if you're interested in seeing what I mean.

And be sure to check out The Right Source and the Liberty Minute archive.

Dum spiro, pugno!


Anonymous said...

Just want to say I enjoy your blog very much.

I really had a laugh with the flan comment. My wife makes a good flan, although I agree that is the exception rather than the rule!

William N. Grigg said...

Thanks so much, daveg! My problem is that I can't eat eggs, so custard of any kind doesn't agree with me.

dixiedog said...

I agree with the panoramic tentative conclusion you draw from the Carol Gotbaum death as well.


I must say that I sincerely hope that you retain the, albeit admittedly sometimes vague in my mind, distinction of being a stalwart independent, self-thinking libertarian who is sympathetic and/or empathetic to neither the Bushevik "we need big government to protect us" bunch nor the Clintler "we need big government to assist us" bunch.

Or am I mistaken in thinking that you are really independent of the two sides of the same coin? Nah, that would surely be absurd.

One who bashes the police rightly (IMO), and explains why they rightly bash the police still doesn't clarify much in the grand scheme since the good, the bad, and the ugly all collectively support/oppose some trends and events we see.

Hmmm, a few examples of what I mean:

1. Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's visit to Columbia University. The press, and presumably the aggregate crowd as well, ridiculed his anti-homosexual rant and assuming that everyone will disagree with that because, hey, only anti-semitic tyrants with genocidal tendencies of his ilk would even think about homosexuality in such a way. Or try to convey that you have to be partnering with, supporting, or otherwise acquiescing to, that lot or otherwise be considered a genuine Mahmoud apologist and supporter.


2. Anti-war sentiment. If you oppose the war (ignoring the reasons you oppose it, naturally), you must certainly be in ideological and philosophical lockstep with the Hollyweird celebrity brigade, academia, etc. And vice-versa, of course. The clueless liberales likewise think you're in ideological and philosophical lockstep with their mindset in ALL critical cultural/political areas if you merely oppose the Iraq war, even when the reason for YOUR opposition is diametrically counter to theirs.


3. Affirmative Action. If you oppose affirmative action, then you must be a racist. Again, never mind the reason why one would oppose it and that affirmative action on behalf of ANY race, ethnicity, or any other whimsical qualifier is unconstitutional and plainly immoral!


There's a thousand other scenarios that could be relayed, but I think for all who can think for themselves independently, the point is clear.

Lastly, when you say, "They did this because they're permitted to, not because it was necessary.", what exactly is the point to be taken from that? I can do a lot of things and actually get away with it, but I choose not to do them. What you said is like saying that the only reason you, I, or anyone else for that matter doesn't break into homes and steal other's possessions, is merely because they're "not allowed to" or because we don't have the force of Leviathan at our back. As if it was written verbatim in the LAW itself that the LAW would somehow provide suitable restraint. Not really.

Although, I do agree that a LAW and fear of consequences is what prevent otherwise morally rudderless folk from carrying out certain acts, naturally.

It's a damned world we live in Will and, from the looks of it with folk becoming ever more confused, bewildered, and fanatical about what they believe, should believe, what's right, wrong, up, down, left, right, etc., all the while ignoring the Truth itself, it's only is likely to get worse.

Humble Polymath said...

This woman died of some combination of police brutality and alcohol withdrawal.

I would lean more toward alcohol withdrawal. She was on her way to a treatment program and was delayed a few hours to say goodby to her family. Few people understand that although all withdrawals are uncomfortable, there are only really two substances that you can go cold turkey from and it can kill you. Not coke, not smack, it's alcohol and downers. Within a half day to 2 day period after the last drink, a person who is dependent on alcohol will become extremely agitated,start to shake, have convulsions, run a fever, go into tachycardia and die. Anxiolytic meds and physical support along with perhaps a judicious amount of alcohol in an emergency situation would have set things right. She was in full blown withdrawal and was not in control of any of her body's homeostatic mechanisms, let alone her feelings and reactions. THis is not the only case of a pig thinking that he is a god, all powerful and all knowing, and a patient who was in medical crisis died because the pigs refused to listen to a cry for help and/or act by calling in QUALIFIED medical professionals with an IQ of over 80. All cops are brutal nazi pigs. Every single one is a power hungry bastard. Just ask their wives and the non sworn personnel they work with. This police state has got to be dealt with, and fast. And did I mention, Craig Timko is an asshole!

Anonymous said...

I hope those f-ing cops burn in hell for eternity.

Anonymous said...

The woman had anixety disorder you imbecile commenters....the police are PIGS...trickle down pigdom frfom Major World Pig Bush. This woman was treated with less respect than a Golden Retgriever. I hope the family wins millions and the cops go straight to HELL and BURN FOREVER. THEY KILLED A MOTHER OF THREE CHILDREN FOR NO REASON. BURN F-ING COPS BURN.

Anonymous said...

Have American citizens all had a collective castration? Any pig that did that to my wife would soon be found floating in a river. There is a great quote in 'V for Vendetta' that is apropos:
"People shouldn't be afraid of their Government, Governments should be afraid of their People"
PS: check out Radley Balko at

dixiedog said...

With all the delays (probably mostly due to TSA actions ironically), the TSA goons themselves and their myriad molestation proclivities, not to mention the schizo public who are likely to freak out at even merely wayward speech on a plane, are just a few of the reasons I don't bother flying on commercial flights anymore. The last time I flew, and that was on a foreign airline, was in Feb. 1996 (Baltimore-Keflavik-Luxembourg) on Icelandair.

Also, methinks, in this post-911 era, being a diabetic who carries his "contraband" everywhere I could see myself subjected to similar treatment as well.

Forget it, it just ain't worth the pain, especially within the continental US. And as for overseas, these days I also wouldn't bother with flying unless absolutely necessary.

Anonymous said...

Hey, take it easy! I can't easily control what I do or don't do. It all becomes a blur to me any more. It's my nature! I know that I can be anal at times. Please just give me a few more chances!

-C. Timko

Anonymous said...

The death of Carol Ann Gotbaum is absolutely heartbreaking. I have tried to imagine how the victim could get the chain from behind her back and under her chin.

On top of the Tanya Rider incident and the Florida student who was tazered, one has to conclude that there is soemthing very rotten at the heart of american law enforcement.

This poor woman, slight in build and a mom, possibly suffering from major withdrawal symptoms, had taken the wonderful decision to go for treatment. And on missing her flight, got agitated, and was jumped by several burly ‘law enforcers’. What is it with american cop violence? Are they not there to be a force for good? Why do they have to be so aggressive.

Unfortunately in the law suits that I imagine will follow such a death, it will be the american taxpayer who foots the bill. These officers need to be dismissed from the force. And the regulations need to be changed.

You don’t jump on someone with health issues, truss them up, and then leave them alone.

For heaven’s sake, over here in the UK you can’t light up a cigarette in a public place (like an airport or you’re liable to a 5,000 dollar fine. Why is it ok to allow seven hefty badge-wearers to wrestle and truss up a small lady with major health issues….and leave her alone, despite her being in very obvious distress.

This is absolutely scandalous. There is something very rotten at the heart of American society.

Anonymous said...

For another update, it appears that the original stories claiming that Ms. Gotbaum got to the gate when the plane was pulling away was misinformation. She got there at 1:06, more than twenty minutes before departure time. They gave away her seat because the plane was overbooked. What is disgusting about this is that the U.S. Airways
states that your seat may be given away if you are not there 20 minutes before the flight. She was at the gate 24 minutes before her 1:30 flight.

After being robbed of her seat, she bought a ticket from another passenger (offering them a free roundtrip ticket in return for theirs to Tulsa) and was told by airline staff that she couldn't do that because it was a "security risk".

No wonder she was screaming about not being a terrorist. She attempted a rational act and encountered insane inanity. That's enough to drive anyone mad.

davo said...

Why do they only have cameras in the front areas? There are hundreds of people and eyes there.

Where we need the cameras is in the 'back' rooms! -that's where the real storys are!

The autopsy basically says she had bruises all over her body, and they finally killed her while chaining her up to the bench.
They simply crushed her chest by kneeling on her.

Oh well, just another day's work.

How did we go from: complain at airport terminal: get a manager to talk to you and give you a free ticket!


complain at the terminal, and be made 'terminal' by 6 armed brutes!

What's going on here?

No wonder she dragged her feet all the way to the back, she probably knew, something bad was going to happen...

Anonymous said...

ummm... First of all the police action did not look particularly violent. Those who are commenting here seem to be suffering from some hippie related disorder: "Pigs... Burn F-ing Cops" I felt like was in a Dragnet episode.

Believe it or not yelling threats in an airport is stupid and it may get you arrested.

al sends

PS� No Bush fan here; but, it amazes me how everything ends up in this guys lap

liberranter said...


Which "law enforcement" agency do you serve with? At least have the courtesy to identify yourself as a cop (and only a cop could possibly defend anyone involved in this travesty).

Lady Quill said...

I lived in Phoenix for 20 years, and this kind of thing is common. People die or are injured in police custody every month in Phx. Airport police are no different, they all have a very distinct "I'm better than you are, and I'll do as I please" attitude. It's even worse for the minorities and non citizens (legal or not). Some of the cops are rough because they're scared. Cops are targeted by gangs and dealers for hits, other cop assume you're guilty and treat you as such. You're even treated as a criminal if you call them. I called 911 in Phx a few months ago for a medical emergency and was threatened by the accompanying officers.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Will.

Your insight and diligence are much appreciated, and -- in a world of propaganda masquerading as 'news' -- one of the few truly trustworthy sources on stories like this one.

Anonymous said...

The only reason anyone knows anything about this Ms. Gotbaum woman is because she was wealthy and politically connected.
The police kill poor people with impunity as no one investigates their deaths or cares.
But even with those connections I predict within 30 days this story gets covered up and disapears completely. Cops can't ever be proven wrong because they're the front line defenders of this authoritarian dictatorship you call the United States. The vast majority of people still believe that the police are there to protect you. In fact, they exist only to protect the state.

Anonymous said...

You could have gone to my link and found my blog...

For what it's worth... I am a pastor at a small church in Pensacola, FL. Don't even have any cops in my family.

Just pointing out that some of your preconceived notions may have colored your viewing of the video and the overall perception of events. Maybe?

al sends

dixiedog said...

OT: Please forgive me, Will.

Remember the Siege in New Hampshire?

Ed and Elaine Brown were arrested without incident Thursday night. The government-media complex has already shifted into high-gear smear of the Browns and additional charges are likely.

At least they didn't end up martyrs, thankfully.

Anonymous said...

Here is the police report.

Anonymous said...

"The last time I flew, and that was on a foreign airline, was in Feb. 1996 (Baltimore-Keflavik-Luxembourg) on Icelandair.- DD"

Not to minimize the blog topic but LOL! I last "participated" in an Icelandair flight on board an old DC-8 back in 1973. That was an experience I'll never forget. It was from Chicago-Keflavik-Luxembourg. Just thinking about it brings tears to my eyes.

And just like you I only fly foreign carriers when going overseas. The domestics have bad service so that really irritates me.

When I'm out of the country it's like a breath of fresh air but coming "home" it's almost as though you're flying into Soviet airspace. Just watching the cattle prodding TSA at work is enough to make you renounce your citizenship on the spot.

dixiedog said...

This stuff has already hit Youtube. Others may have already seen these, but anyway:

Sky Harbor Gotbaum Detaining Video
Carol Gotbaum dies after police arrest at Airport!! CNN
Woman dies while struggling to get free from her handcuffs.

I'm reading the linked police report jerri lynn ward provided now. Having read this much already, however, I'm not exactly surprised, of course, that the 11 documented witnesses, all of whom were willing to testify, were either airport employees or Phoenix police officers, and an ICE agent. The remaining two, a "salesman," Mike Berg, and the other, Christopher Bellino, whose business/occupation are both undocumented, looks to be the only independent witnesses. They're the only two I see in the report.

Anyhow, thank you for the updates and keep 'em comin', Will.

dixiedog said...

Not to minimize the blog topic but LOL! I last "participated" in an Icelandair flight on board an old DC-8 back in 1973. That was an experience I'll never forget. It was from Chicago-Keflavik-Luxembourg. Just thinking about it brings tears to my eyes.

Hehe, I flew on a 757 on that 1996 Icelandair flight. It was a nice relaxing flight. The only problem was that after dining on their specialty, fish, when we finally arrived in Iceland for the "pit-stop" on the way to LUX, it seemed like MOST of the folk on the plane had to quicktime it to the restroom. Ugh...

But, in spite of that minor problem, I thought the food was pretty tasty.

And just like you I only fly foreign carriers when going overseas. The domestics have bad service so that really irritates me.

Couldn't agree with ya more, mot! Although, as I mentioned, since I've not flown commerically since 1996, I'm certain a LOT has changed since then. I may have luckily missed it even back then and previously, perhaps, but I don't recall anything approaching the nonsense that passengers are subjected to now.

Anonymous said... the latest CYA story by the Phoenix Police, they describe in detail how Carol Ann Gotbaum vomited in the mouth of the first responder, who bravely carried on despite the disgusting experience.

My sister, a trained first responder, is amazed no one has dismantled this aspect of the Phoneix PD story.

Anyone who has been trained as a first responder, in the age of AIDS, TB and SARS, has been told repeatedly the dangers of attempting resuscitation without some kind of oral protective barrier.

I guarantee those guards would be using a mouth guard/face shield. Why has no one mentioned this, and blown apart that particular lie?

Anonymous said...


Could find no other way of your article on Carol Anne Gotbaum and would like to have you on my show to address unusual circumstances regarding this tragedy.

Anonymous said...

Hi Will,

As always, I enjoy your insight, wisdom, and just plain good writing. I have written a journal entry that mentions your blog:

"Somehow It's Even Worse To Know That She Was A Mom. . . "

I am glad that Korrin is doing better!


Anonymous said...

I was trained as a pathologist and occasionally do forensic work. I have seen cases in which a person died as a result of neck constriction due to the "vaso-vagal" response. Here, even a mild constriction can cause you heart to stop. The police used to do this all the time with chokeholds, until they revised the practice.

It does not seem possible that she could have choked herself with handcuffs. It just does not work that way. Ruling out the usual causes of sudden death (heart attack, stroke, or pulmonary embolus), this looks like something the police did. Maybe a crush chest from the takedown prevented her from breathing. But my favorite is some sort of chokehold.

Once before 9/11, I made a connection at the Phoenix airport on Air West, a predecessor to US-Air. The flight was delayed and a couple of passengers complained to the desk. Next thing you know, there are a couple of security guys there with German shepards. Since then, I have avoided both the airline and the airport.

Anonymous said...

Hey Pastor Al,
ummm....The frail woman died in police custody, but ...ummm... I bet that hardly matters to you. Admit it my Calvinist friend; (God 'zaps' you first, then you're able to believe in Jesus.) you love the State more than you love Jesus. Hey, ummm....just pointing out some of your preconceived notions which may have coloured your overall perception of the death by government event. Remember Al, this mother of three childrens (Since you really do adore GWB, I thought I'd throw that 'Bushism' in for ya. You know, to enhance your spiritual experience.) is dead, and the enforcers who took her away are probably laughing about it right now over a couple of triple-patty cheeseburgers.

Anonymous said...

what you conveniently fail to mention is that mrs. gotbaum was a notorious cocaine addict and was probably coked out during this incident. if she didn't freak out she would be alive today. i believe airport authorities acted reasonably.

Anonymous said...

How many times will the official police "story" change?

Ok folks, put your hands, holding a small rubber band between them, behind your back, now try to get them over your head,,, can't do it can you. This is the official excuse from the killer(s) in uniform.

If this woman was a friend or relative of mine, at the first signal the official police story was changed, they would be dead as dead could ever be dead.

"Protect and serve"? What is the cause for the escallation of authority at airports,?, terrorists. What was this woman facing, terrorists. These terrorists are protecting the airlines ability to sell 200 tickets for a 150 seat plane. Was not Jim Baker of the PTL infamy arrested and sent to prison for the same act,, yes.

Why do cops place the knee, with full weight on anyones neck? Or back? That action alone is tantamount to attempting to cripple for life if not kill the one under knee.

On another note, why do we allow 'caught-red-handed' killers the luxury of a trial, and even after 12 jurers find them guilty, why do they get to live out their lives.

I know, because so many idiots think that the 'bad guys' will meet true justice in the life after, just what the scumbags known as the elite want you to do, nothing.

A ps for Al the pastor, your comments are right in tune, your kind are the worst of the worst of all the parasites that live. You are respected for what, preaching lies to desperate people? You are respected with that unConstitutional tax free status? You Al, are a parasite of the worst kind and I really hope you have a run in with one of these jack-booted-thugs, that would be poetic justice in your case.

With all the rhetoric about "the american citizens rights", where were they that day. Raising a voice is justification to kill that voice?

A note for all American Citizens. It is your right to life and liberty, and the protection of them, to fight anyone to their death that wears any uniform, when you see that uniform cross the line of duty, "to serve and protect".

Welcome to the USSA.

SlackerSlayer of Liberty Forum DOT org.

Anonymous said...

PS, learn how to defend yourself and kill with just your own hands and fingers, it is easy.

Anonymous said...

What you conveniently fail to mention, fellow anon, is that she needed medical assistance, which was clearly communicated by her husband to the authorities before her untimely and preventable demise. Capice?

Anonymous said...

Airlines security is becoming the new Nazis! What happened to the old Nazis? "Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we are finally on our own"! "Read my lips" Carol Anne Gotbaum is the last Victim, the last one!

Anonymous said...

The death of Carol Anne Gotbaum really struck a nerve with me. My heart goes out to her family. I know what it is like. I recently lost my father, a 75 year old man who was pulled over by Mojave County, Arizona police 2 years ago for supposedly speeding. The police proceeded to taser my father 7 times ( I am not kidding! ) before he finally fell to the ground. Why did they taser him? Because he stepped out of the car for a breath of fresh air while the police-person was writing the ticket. Had he been told to stay in the car he would have, but he was not told to. We had just lost my mother to liver cancer and my father was in heavy mourning when this happened. They had been married 53 years. He was driving from our home in Montana to Phoenix to stay with my brother for a while. My father was hauled to the Mojave County jail after this occurrence and the video the police recorded of the incident was conveniently erased by them after they realized my fathers age and that he had done nothing illegal to warrant that sort of treatment. My brother had to drive from PHX to Kingman to get my father out of the jail where he should not have been in the first place. He should have been in the hospital. He was never the same after that incident, but instead of pursuing a case against Mojave County, my father tried to forget what happened. He was so humiliated and said he wanted to forget it. All of us were humiliated by this incident. Now I have just lost my father and the coroner tells me that the incident in Arizona was likely a major contributor to his death. How does that make me feel? I am so disgusted and grieved that I am literally sick over this. I wish there was something I could do, but I have no idea where to even start. Perhaps it's too late anyway. At any rate, I thought I should share this with everyone, because obviously our police are out of control as shown by this and by what happened to Ms. Gotbaum. One just does NOT taser a 75 year old man period. My father was an incredibly wonderful and gentle man. He was well respected and known all through our community for helping others in need. He volunteered at the National Guard and our local hospital. Thats the kind of man he was. Now I have lost both parents, and one of those deaths could have likely been prevented. Thanks Mojave County, Arizona! - B. McIntyre

William N. Grigg said...

I'm sorry to learn of your loss, and outraged to know that the needless criminal violence he suffered deprived him of what could have been several years of happy, rewarding life with his family.

A 73-year-old man Tazed seven times for STEPPING OUT OF HIS CAR. Welcome to the Land of the Free, y'all.

Do you have any additional information and documentation on this incident you could send to me? My e-mail is WNGrigg [at] msn [dot] com.

Anonymous said...

I do have additional info for you. I wrote an abbreviated version of what happened. What happened was even more disturbing but I shortened it quite a bit. Thank you for your condolences. They are much appreciated. I have written you a personal email as well. Thanks and keep up the excellent work!

Anonymous said...

According to the "Turner Diaries" when the Cops become murderers the Cop's families become legitimate targets, according to the "Turner Diaries" ! Shalom and God bless America!

William N. Grigg said...

I suppose that's of some use to the sexual deviates and other dullards who look on "The Turner Diaries" as sacred writ, rather than the diseased outpourings of a disturbed personality.

People of that sort are of a kind with the State-employed goons whose misdeeds are chronicled in this blog. I have no use for either group.

Anonymous said...

MR. Grigg;
Please, let me clarify; The Turner Diaries MINUS the Racism is the roadmap back to the Greatly Designed Piece of Paper once Martial Law has been declared and the Police State takes over, which should be soon as we attack Iran. I have also read SUN TZU and the Talmud and I am not Chinese or Jewish but I take from all people and races. The Police can now kill, for example MS Gotbaum and the Military torture Americans and deny US our Constitutional rights. We need to get back to our great Constitution and soon or the Biggest, Badest, Craziest, Bloodiest, party in the US is coming and soon. Shalom. Anon Jaye

Unknown said...

Regardless of fact that the victim had addiction problems and freaked out at the airport, if the police acted reasonably then why are we told that this woman strangled herself with the handcuffs that were behind her back? To me it seems the police have indicted themselves with that foolishness, and the burden of proof is now on them.

dixiedog said...

Off-Duty Wisconsin Deputy Sheriff Kills 6

Yet another copper incident makes the news. This time, however, it was a young mass-murderer. He managed to kill 6 of 7 contemporaries gathered in a home and injure the remaining one before other coppers shot him dead.

Perhaps you can find out some pertinent details about this one, Will, and share them? The official version of this is likely to be half-truths at best.

William N. Grigg said...

Jaye, I take your point. But I don't believe that one can extract sound tactics from The Turner Diaries, any more than one can effectively remove the onions from a Spanish omelet. It's Marighella transposed into a white supremacist key, and I don't like Marighella's approach, either.

I do think you're right about what we're likely to see in the near future if our rulers have their way (may God preserve us from it), but there is NO way I would EVER direct violence at innocent people, no matter how depraved may be their kinfolk who work for the State.


William N. Grigg said...

D.D., I heard and read about that awful mass murder in WI, my old adopted state. I've added it to the rather obese file I've collected of police crimes and mishaps involving firearms. And I'm working my sources to learn whatever I can about this. This sort of thing is utterly hideous, and by no means uncommon.

Fred said...

Anon 1:20 said-

Anyone who has been trained as a first responder, in the age of
AIDS, TB and SARS, has been told repeatedly the dangers of attempting resuscitation without some kind of oral protective barrier.

I guarantee those guards would be using a mouth guard/face shield. Why has no one mentioned this, and blown apart that particular lie?

You're righht. They've been told time and time again to use a shield or mask. Should they not perform CPR because one is not within arm's reach? Many would agree with you and refuse to place their lips on a stranger because it's likely the fallen one will vomit into their mouth while they try to save their life. But some take the chance.

I recall a patriot falling to the floor at a JBS Speaker's tour stop when three off duty police officers (attendees in the audience) rendered aid by two performing CPR and the third grabbing the aed from the hotel desk. They knew that without a mask or shield the guy doing "breaths" was going to take A HIT. But it's worth it if they person in need comes through. And A HIT he did take!

Some time at the toilet and Listerine takes care of that. Not an unusual situation when you're in a pinch. Seen it several times.

I'm not convinced that this cop in AZ did not perform the R in CPR just because current industry standards are to never do it unless you have a shield/barrier/mask/etc. To Hell with their standards. Someone is dying!

Fred said...

If my wife happened to be en route to check herself in at a rehab and she was- as her husband said- suicidal, I'd like to think I would have travelled with her or appointed a guardian to accompany her.

Their poor travel arrangements are their fault. But the police encountering unusual behavior and not responding properly is their fault. Any behavior other than the standard rowdy drunk who needs to sleep it off needs medical attention nowadays. Even a drunk whose bac is .30 or better should be in a hospital, lest he die in a drunk tank from "alcohol poisoning".

Any strange behavior should cause the cops to have an ambulance on standby for an immediate hand-off in case there is a medical concern.

Anonymous said...

Police brutality at airports is out of control. Especially when the police beat up and or kill young women and mothers. They never released the brain, heart or neck to the coroner that the family hired. It looks like they choked her to death and are covering it up with a fake story. I have never heard of anyone chocking themselves to death while handcuffed in a holding cell.

Anonymous said...

If that was a 250lb man acting that way there would be no discussion about his arrest.

Because she was a 105lb woman everyone is up in arms. She didn't take her medication, she was suffering from withdrawls, she was screaming at the top of her lungs because she missed a flight?!?

Sounds like she was one of dozens of loud mouth people that I see everyday. When asked to calm down she CHOSE to continue.

WTF is up with the "I am not a terrorist" comments? " I am a F*&%'ing American!"

So let me get this straight, you are an American and not a terrorist so you can be an asshole?

Good for the cops, they did their job which is to protect the public. If she didn't die she would have received medical attention, 15 minutes is hardly more than an inconvience under normal circumstances.

People need to shut up and do what they are told when asked by authorities, not grand stand and throw a drunk housewife hissy fit.

So the police ordered chinese food while this was going down. AND?

I guess everyone should stop their normal lives everytime there is an arrest. THAT would cure America's obesity problem.

To all you peons that call cops pigs, next time your house get burglarized, next time someone flies a jet into your highrises, next time your kid gets carjacked...sit on your hands...don't call the "pigs' to do your dirtywork or to help you.

You are all cowards

William N. Grigg said...

Last time my house was burglarized, the heroes in blue did nothing to help.

Last time there was a mass shooting, you may know, it was carried out by one of the heroes in blue - and he wasn't stopped until AFTER several kids were dead.

This is typical: The only role police play in shooting sprees is to string up the crime scene tape and draw chalk outlines; actually INTERVENING to protect innocent lives would violate "officer safety" guidelines, after all.

Police do nothing to protect us against hijackings, carjackings, or any other variety of violent crime I can think of. Sometimes they're useful in solving crimes after the fact, but they're not liable, under either criminal or civil law, to "protect" us from anything.

What I'd like to know, assuming you can halt the torrential flood of bilious illogic long enough to think, is this: How does confronting the misbehavior of armed goons with broad discretion to use lethal force make one a "coward"?

Anonymous said...

because you don't do it face to face, you do it on the internet where everyone is ten feet tall and bulletproof.

The "cowards" that complain from thier armchairs and condemn those that stand out in front to protect.

William N. Grigg said...

Police don't "protect" us, except in genuinely extraordinary circumstances. WE are the ones who almost always have to deal with the violent criminals at the point of conflict, with the police showing up much later.

If police are such heroes, why do we see them descending on women the size of Mrs. Gotbaum en masse? Four big, donut-fed, armed guys swarming a petite, middle-aged Jewish mother.... Such bold, hairy-chested heroism! Brings a tear to my eye even as I place my hand over a grateful heart.

William N. Grigg said...

Oh -- and I shouldn't forget to mention that an ANONYMOUS accusation of cowardice is somewhat self-nullifying, wouldn't you say?

Anonymous said...

Oh wait, you a writer and editor.

You have mastered sitting on your butt and critisizing.

William N. Grigg said...

Am I to assume that you're writing posts via Blackberry from a stake-out as you prepare to dash into some criminal's lair at great personal danger?

Nah. I didn't think so.

Anonymous said...

"To all you peons that call cops pigs"

Peons? Are you a cop? Is this what you think of the law abiding people you are to serve and protect? We are the ones who should arbitrate what is proper conduct by the police in a free country--not you.

"People need to shut up and do what they are told when asked by authorities, not grand stand and throw a drunk housewife hissy fit."

I'm sure the agents in the Gestapo and the Stasi felt the same way about what people should do when they exercised their authority.

liberranter said...

Al said...

You could have gone to my link and found my blog...

For what it's worth... I am a pastor at a small church in Pensacola, FL.

I wasn't off by much. It doesn't surprise me at all to see yet another "pastor" of the strain of faux Christianity now prevalent in Amerika defending the actions of statist murderers. Still, you can rest easy, Al. You and your Christofascist colleagues have co-opted the nation's churches so thoroughly that no true Christianity will likely ever stand in the way of your mission to abet your Savior-in-Chief's plan to complete Amerika's transformation into the ultimate police state.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't all of this bullying go right along with our foreign policy?

After all, we picked on two countries - Iraq and Afghanistan that had been ravaged by war for over a decade rather than taking on even North Korea (oh, that's right, their big brother China, you know, the one holding our economic nads, might decide they didn't care for the "democritization"). That might cause us to have to fight someone our own size.

Now we want to pick on Iran, a country without the capability to project anything but radio waves out of its own country!

Picking on those who can't even help themselves doesn't make the baddest power in the world look very good!

May the Ron Paul Revolution pick up more revolutionaries and take this country back!!

Save us from the politicians who are generous with the lives of other people's sons! Louis

Anonymous said...

No I am not writing this from my Blackberry at a stakeout, I am happy with the Police and the job they do.

No I am not a Police Officer I am an everyday citizen who respects that they are 10 times braver than anyone who is posting here critisizing them.

I do think people need to put up or shutup, I am talking because I believe they are doing a great job and you are posting because you are too cowardly to change things in person.

Go through training, pickup a badge and go walk the line.

That dead woman would be alive if she wasn't an alcoholic loud mouth.

William N. Grigg said...

It seems to me that you're a splendid example of what Ayn Rand called a "second-hander." You're obviously not on speaking terms with logic: Given that the problem, as we see it, is the increasing lawlessness of our "law" enforcement system, how could we improve our situation by enlisting in that system -- as opposed to agitating for changes in the political landscape that might rein in the police?

William N. Grigg said...

The police officers and Sheriff's deputies I knew growing up were much more judicious in using deadly (or potentially deadly) force. Andy Taylor was an idealized vision of the local Peace Officer, but he wasn't all that far from the reality many of us knew. For that matter, Wyatt Earp (as I've written before) was a model of restraint and decorum compared to many of the people now working as LEOs.

I agree that programs like "COPS" and "Dallas SWAT" (which is utterly reprehensible) have done a lot of damage.

A Radical Whig in Chattanooga said...

Don't blame "Calvinists" for the "Religious Right's" love of government authority. John Knox and Christopher Goodman had quite a bit to say in opposition to government tyranny:

William N. Grigg said...

John Knox (a hero of mine, as well as a distant ancestor by adoption) was heroic in asserting the principle that the sole duty and privilege of a political magistrate is to provide his subjects with the freedom to obey God's law.

John Cooke, the prosecutor who sent Charles I to the scaffold (knowing that he would almost certainly follow if the royalists regained the throne -- a fate he eventually suffered), was a Calvinist, too. It's difficult to describe him as an advocate of tyranny. The same is true of the anonymous Calvinist who wrote "Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos."

There are Reformed Christians who insist on an improper deference to incumbent authority. But the current version of that affliction, as I see it, is more common among Mega-Church Evangelicals who have NOTHING to do with Calvinism.

zach said...

John Macarthur, who I think is a great blessing to reformed Christianity teaching today, gives the state too much leeway. Many calvinists believe as he does in my experience.

Anonymous said...

Mr. B. McIntyre, I have seen the type of abuse of a taser you describe first hand. I have 17 stainless steel screws in my leg and hip. I was in Seattle Tacoma Intl. Airport and made a fuss much like Mrs. Gotbaum (very much like). I wanted back on a flight. I was attacked and tackled while trying to explaine I had handicap issues and a bad shoulder. I was tased 5 times while in handcuffs. The officer had the taser stuffed in my groin against my pelvis. My guts where being shocked through the plates and screws in my hip. A federal airmarshal helped keep onlookers away while this happened. Now they say I am making it all up.

I sent a letter to a supervisor of the officer involved, after he tried to tell me I was only tased once. I sent pictures of my x-rays with the letter. Now they say I wasn't tased at all.

I am a NRA member and have had the same job for over 11.5 years. These sleezeball corrupt power abusing jerks need to be held accountable for their actions.

That's all I have to say about that!!

William N. Grigg said...

That is utterly horrifying, and not at all atypical of what's happening in airports under the Homeland Security regime.

Is there any way you could provide me with additional details about your terrifying experience? Please contact me at WNGrigg [at]msn [dot] com.

Anonymous said...

My snideful, oblique jab at Calvinism was really aimed at their theological view concerning their doctrine of predestination, which is really not suitable for discussion here, so I admit the side comment was uncalled for on my part. My apologies are offered. Yes, some of the staunchest defenders of freedom were Calvinist Christians, and it is true that today's Mega-Church Evangelicals don't have much to do with Calvinism.....or Arminianism, or Molinism or any other Christian doctrine or doctrinal system for that matter. They're not into it; they're into extravagant church events and post-modern Biblical hermeneutics, e.g. "What does that verse mean to you?". But Will is also right in saying that some (I believe there are too many) knowledgeable Reformed Christians display an improper deference to incumbent authority. Clearly, the American Church is infected with the deadly and sinful disease of 'statolatry' and appears to be heading in the same direction as the German Church once did during the tumultuous years of the post-war Weimar Republic....and afterward.
-From an Independent,
non-Calvinist, (and non-Dispensationalist) Evangelical Christian

Anonymous said...

Look at this.:

"The lawyer who represents the family of a New York woman who died in police custody in Phoenix plans to sue the same police department for the death of a 70-year-old grandmother who died under similar circumstances.

The family of Carol Anne Gotbaum hired Michael Manning of Arizona to investigate the 45-year-old woman's death in Phoenix police custody Sept. 28.

Manning said he has filed a notice of claim in the death of Doris Watson, an elderly woman who died of an apparent heart attack after being arrested March 13.

Watson was cuffed by Phoenix police after she refused to get out of her daughter's car. At the time, she was off her medication for bipolar disorder and depression, the lawyer said.

Manning said a distraught Watson went into cardiac arrest as she was subdued, but police told paramedics Watson was "faking.""

Anonymous said...

Yeah faking. Just like I was faking about having screws in my leg and pelvis when I started to freak out about a taser being stuffed my face while in handcuffs. "Guess I better tase this guy...he seems to be getting upset...that should fix the problem" Idiot police place everyone on a level that doesn't allow them to respect or even try to be understanding of someones reaction to their violent behavior.

liberranter said...

Anonymous said...Idiot police place everyone on a level that doesn't allow them to respect or even try to be understanding of someones reaction to their violent behavior.

"Idiot police." A tautology if ever there was one.

Anonymous said...

Why did a lot of the Cops from Katrina resign in mass? Maybe because they are not trained for such savagery, coldness and brutality like Blackwater, Certain groups of our military, Some Feds and SWAT Teams are? Maybe because they are good, honest, loving and, caring family men and women? So lets all work together to keep our cops honest by getting their names and badge numbers when these things happen and use and hide our camcorders, cell phones and notebooks and not leave the possible victims alone as long as possible and find out where they are being taken and held! lets use the Military Buddy System and act Peacefully as Ghandi taught us to! Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...

You people are all idiots. This woman's death could have been prevented if her family had been there to give her the help they claim she needed. The airport police were confronted with someone who seemed to be out of there head and unstable. What were they supposed to do, give her a seat in first class? I am sick to death of all the whiners out there who expect the rest of the public to put up with their BS, intentional or not. We are turning into a society of pussies who blame everything that happens to us on everybody else. if this woman would have really been a dnager and the police had not restrained her, then everyone would be bitching about that. Bottom line: If you are mentally ill, get help. Don't come to the airport and have a meltdown. I have enough to deal with in my life to have to put up with your crap.

William N. Grigg said...

It would be clear to any sentient being that Carol Anne Gotbaum was a "dnager" only to herself, and that she should have been referred for medical help, rather than being swarmed and handcuffed by a scrum of donut-fed thugs.

She was TRYING to get help, as you'd understand if you actually READ what has been discovered about this incident. Her death was a result of a series of mishaps (she missed a direct flight to Tucson, the family friend who was supposed to watch her at the airport didn't get her updated itinerary) and the reflexive thuggishness of a police department that killed ANOTHER harmless woman at the airport last March.

Your ethics are as dyslexic as your spelling. You have my leave to go back to holding up a photo of Michael Chiklis with one hand.

Anonymous said...

There are several avenues for the blame game here but I hold the contention that Noah Gotbaum ultimately bares the brunt of it.
Any halfwitted nincompoop should understand that you shouldn't be sending an emotionally unstable woman into the clutches of the police state.
Ignorance to the police state is not an exuse but rather a more poignant example of the mans stupidity.
The police state is naked, raw and brutal at "Airport USA".
I share the sentiment of the gentleman that spoke of how he won't fly on commercial airlines ever again.
In fact , I don't stop at avoiding the airports. I have sworn off large public venues and overcrowded beaches and parks where you would find "Americas finest thugs" in abundance.
You may say that's a bit excessive but the truth is our society is starting to become an "every man for himself " police state. That point is driven home by the apparent lack of help that Mrs Gautbam recieved from her American compatriots as she was so obviously being raped by the "authorities".
We've conditioned ourselves , as a socitety, to visualize the "uniform" as acting with impunity even when that "uniform" is so blatantly committing a chrime.
You'll be hard pressed to find me putting myself and my family at the mercy of a herd that can't distinguish between police brutality and justice.
That's not paranoia...that's called "Surviving the Police State 101"

Anonymous said...

Do you want to know the truth about this case?

Check this:

Quite amazing.

Hope it helps.

Anonymous said...

I'm the "anonymous" sap that was tased with screws in his hip and pelvis ref previous comment.

I'd like to say that first the "meltdown" of Mrs. Gotbaum is being over blown. She didn't touch anyone. She was upset (rightfully so) at not being allowed on the flight. I've been there and done that. It's very easy to become upset while looking at your plane at the gate and being told you may not board it. It them becomes a situation of raise your voice a bit and you are now a "problem" that needs to be removed. There is little diplomacy that takes place once the police are called in at a airport. That is problem number one.

Second thing I'd like to add is that people are not quite the sheep that the comment previously made states. In fact there where many people yelling at the officer who had me in handcuffs while applying a taser to my groin. Enough so that he began to feel threatened by the sheer number surrounding him. A federal airmarshal was screaming at them to get back. These same people made sure to make comments to these jerks while they hauled me off crying like a little baby in pain and horror at what was happening to me. Comments like "oooh yeah real tough guys huh?! You didn't fu**ing need to doo that s**t man!!" No our society has a small amount of respect for our rights left.

I mentioned that there where probably many complaints filed as a result of my arrest to a supervising officer over the phone and he flipped out. It was obvious to me this hit home and that I was correct in my assumption. The sad thing is without the names of these witnesses or a lawyer willing to go up against a potentially federal case pro-bono, a guy like me is just screwed. Literally.

Anonymous said...

Why wasn't her careing husband with her... why didn't she go right to the gate instead of going to get lunch ????

William N. Grigg said...

Carol's husband, who had to take care of the couple's small children, originally intended for her to fly directly from New York to Tucson, where she would have been greeted by people from the clinic. When that arrangement fell through, plan "b" was for Carol to be accompanied by a family friend, who failed to make connections at the airport. Noah Gotbaum didn't simply stuff his troubled wife onto a plane.

As someone who has missed connections because of delays, reschedules, and distractions, I'm not going to upbraid the late Mrs. Gotbaum for being a little tardy to the Mesa Air gate.

The salient fact that once the police (needlessly) arrested Carol, they were ENTIRELY responsible -- morally, legally, and civilly -- for her care and well-being. She was dead within a few minutes of being taken into custody, and they shouldn't be allowed to ooze their way out of accountability.

Anonymous said...

All I can say here are: THE GOTBAUMS are irresponsible people here on EARTH! They let Carol traveled ALONE from NY via PHOENIX to TUCSON? This woman is pathetic! She is a "sick mom" and stop blaming the POLICE, TSA, Airport or USA Airways. The GOTBAUMS were saying they were "private people" because they were ashamed of Carol's disease and she would bring the downfall of Betsy Gotbaum, perhaps for Mayoral candicay of NY in 20009? How come they did not even solved Carol's own problem for 3 years and they waited for so long to become worst and blamed everything to the POLICE her own death? SHAME on you NOah Gotbaum. You took the risk, and pay for your wrong planned and decisions making!

William N. Grigg said...

The combination of arrogant sanctimony, indifference to fact, and general illiteracy of maygirl62's contribution leads me to suspect that we're dealing with a victim of "Hannitization."

That you, maygirl62, discern some grand political subtext to this family's personal tragedy, and assume some privileged insight into their unspoken motives -- and seem to believe that you have the key to "solving" severe psychological problems in a very brief time -- suggests that you are rancid with cynicism and hostage to delusions of grandeur.

Please, seek professional help.

*Noah Gotbaum's original plan was NOT for his wife to be left unattended. Through circumstances the family couldn't control, Carol missed the direct flight, and the family friend who was supposed to meet her in Phoenix didn't make it. Noah had to care for their small children.

*However it came to be that Carol ended up in police custody, once she was in their hands the police had the moral, legal, and civil responsibility to ensure her safety. This was explained in detail by Gary Klugiewicz in an essay for

Anonymous said...

In light of the fact that the TSA is directly responsible for flight delays and cancellations galore it's amazing that they then proceed to harass anyone who happens to get upset at being treated like so much ground sausage between their fumbling fingers. Oh, and the price of admission to this assinine absurdity is higher ticket fares. Thank you very much!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

And to add further insult to injury the TSA is calling on all air carriers to be more "efficient" and to shake a leg and all that to speed up service... under, wait..wait for it, threat of penalties!. Hahahahaha! Bozo the Clown doesn't hold a candle to these boobs.

James said...

some moron said: "I am sick to death of all the whiners out there who expect the rest of the public to put up with their BS..."

When did it become illegal to bitch about losing your seat on an airplane, or screaming "I'm not a terrorist.."?

Last I heard, the free speech clause of the constitution didn't make an exception for annoying uber-rightous assholes like yourself, buddy. Or how loud you should proclaim what you felt you have to proclaim.

Cops should be able to use any amount of force they feel like tossing at someone for any trivial offense that happens along?

Death penalty for all loudmouth complainers, eh?

Fuck you nazi turd.

Anonymous said...

My final thought is; If every Jew bricked every Nazi in the face when they came for them, then the Holocaust would not have happened! Now If every time a Cop or group of Cops act as Judge, Jury and Executioner and get away with it and a group of Multicultural and Multiracial American Vigilantes deal with the Rogue Cops and their families then the upcoming Police/Martial law State might not happen! Who knows? The Rogue cops must be made to learn "You mess with our families and we will mess with yours!" My guess is a Pregnant woman will soon be tasered and both her and the child will die and a bloody Riot will occur and it will be the first of many until the jack booted thugs repent and reform! Who knows? Shalom. Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...

To Mr. William N. Grigg,

I don't care what you called me because we have a freedom of speech here! For me, a mental person should have not been allowed traveling alone for long, long hours with the layover in the airport, drinking in the bar and not taking anti-depressant! My stand here...stop blaming the police! They are doing their job to protect the peace and order of our society! Ask MR. "smart" GOTBAUMS and don't give me an excuse, he was taking care of their 3 children! If he loved his wife more than his children, Carol would still be alive today! Noah knew Carol committed suicide a year ago and she could do it again, over and over, once she starts depressive for anything! She doesn't know how to manage her anger, alcoholism and drug dependence. So, for you Mr. Grigg, stop grilling me! Grill the educated people with lots of money and they have answer for you!

William N. Grigg said...

"We have freedom of speech here"?

Carol Anne Gotbaum was ARRESTED for SPEAKING, right? She didn't actually DO anything, apart from throwing a loud, disruptive temper tantrum. She posed no threat, injured nobody, did no damage to property. She didn't interfere in any way with the timely and efficient delivery of air travel.

She simply said things that were disruptive and irrational.

There was a time, not long ago, when police would NOT have formed a rugby scrum and tackled a tiny, small-boned woman to the floor, handcuffing her behind the back and then chaining her to a bench in a detention cell as if she were an inmate at Gitmo.

But ... you're cool with that, since these tactics "maintain the peace and order of our society."

One last observation:

Unless you are someone who has dealt with [a]loved one[s] suffering from severe mental disorders -- for instance, a wonderful, beautiful wife whose sickness is killing her by degrees, while simultaneously making her impervious to reason, and frustrating the efforts of her husband to get help -- you have NO DAMN RIGHT to say ANYTHING about Noah Gotbaum's good-faith efforts.

I know whereof I speak. It's obvious you don't. So just shut the hell up.

Anonymous said...

I know whereof I speak too and shut the hell up too! You think, you are the only one who could speak up for the GOTBAUMS?

How about us that are working in the airport? Are we not supposed to be protected by the police for any violent crimes that a person may commit or committed inside the aiport?

Look, Carol arrived late in her connection flight via TUCSON B3- Terminal 4. She had plenty of time to check in and she did not do it, in a timely manner. There is a ROADHOUSE BAR next to the gate, and somewhere there...she ate her lunch and maybe had some "drinks". There...she comes to the gate and found out...she was late for her flight! If she was focus, to get aboard on time, things would not ever happened in the wrong place and the wrong time.

FYI too, Carol threw her cellphone at one of the passengers at that time and just only missed it! That was the reason why the US AIRWAYS gate employee called for the police.She became violently aggressive and screaming on the top of her lungs. Do you think that is a fair game?

Remember...what the WATSON family said to the media? "They did not know, she was travelling alone"!For me, a person with serious and manic depression patient should have ever been accompanied or flown with her husband, up to the door of her TUCSON REHAB CENTER. Of that Carol is dead, it's so easy to point fingers at the hands of the POLICE. THe GOTBAUMS would find ways to blame it to "SOMEBODY" not to themselves, of course! It would save their face from conscience and just sue the government for more bucks. Goodluck!

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Abuse, Beating and Tasering! If Iran is bombed, then they will awaken their sleepers here and Shopping Malls, Theaters and Restaurants will start to be blown to pieces, then Martial Law will declared Meaning more Beatings and Tasering then the Second American Revolution (SAR) using the "Turner Diaries" MINUS the RACISM not that Carlos Marighella Crap! will start and end with a big party in DC with the bodies of Satan's children serving as torches to light up the night and our great Constitution will be restored again to it's place of Honor! Shalom! God bless America and her Constitution!
Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...

You can't strangle yourself to death while restrained in handcuffs. It's impossible. Their story does not add up. She was a good person. She was a mother with 3 kids. She has people who loved her. She did not deserve to die at the hands of airport police.

Anonymous said...

OK, final thought, the cops got away with murder this time, this time! Being close to Halloween lets say a group of peaceful protesters start getting beat up by the cops for no legal reason and the protesters having no weapons start biting, yes biting first they bite the hands, then arms and legs and then they start biting the necks and then this bloody "Night of the living dead" Scenario teaches people, its OK to bite and that Americans have certain rights and protections under our Constitution! Shalom. Happy Halloween Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...
Chicago Cops taser an 82 year old woman! Shalom.
Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...

So many here want there to be a "conspiracy theory". The facts are adding up.

1. The woman was messed up! A real mess. Drug use, depression, two attempted suicides in the past year.

2. She was wierd, acting insane at the time of her arrest.

Have any of you thought that she may have purposely gotten into a position to kill herself?

The woman was not a normal mom that just happened to get upset! She was a dysfunctional person. Nobody in the airport knew her past. To them she was a strange person acting up. She was annoying to folks who were passengers as well. She was taken away, chained to a bench and left alone for a few moments. That is normal.

Quit trying to make this into a thing where an innocent person is being beat up by some Soviet era cops and then secretly executed by some Nazi Doctors in a back room.

As far as I can tell she was either resisting the handcuffs by trying to get out of them OR purposely ended her life as she had tried to do earlier. Suppose she had been taken to her cell and then hanged herself? Is that still the fault of the police? We have taken on far too much these days... makes you wonder how people, our ancesters, ever made it up to now?

Quit the hype, a drug crazed, mentally depressed, woman will no longer affect her children. Hopefully they will grow up to be normal.

Anonymous said...

Hey, don't forget to update your readers on the officially ACCIDENTAL death of your drunk and disorderly cause celebre, Ms. Gotbaum. Did you read the new report from the Maricopa Co. Coroner? How about those toxicology results?

So much for your preposterous, pie-in-the-sky theory that officers sat on or otherwise crushed her to death. No savage, unprovoked abuse...nothing. It was just another case of "saw a$$hole, arrested same." She choked on her own handcuffs, through her own astonishing belligerence. Of course, like any anti-authority type you'll be weaving a fantastic conspiracy theory. The fix must have been in; the coroner was bought; 2+2 makes 5. Someone call Ollie Stone.

So much for you and any shred of credibility you've ascribed yourself. You're no libertarian. And you sure as hell don't speak for this one.

Now shut the f--k up already!

Jerry Mair
New York

Anonymous said...

One less Drunk driver in the world. She was drunk when she killed just in. Good.

Anonymous said...

It appears to me, from the autopsy report, that the only objective evidence of strangulation is the marks on the right side of her neck. No broken blood vessels in her eyes. No involuntary urination or defecation. No claw marks on her neck indicating that she tried to relieve pressure, despite her long fingernails--which were unbroken. No description from the officer who found her that her head was hanging on the chain in some manner or that the chain was completely around her neck.

Also, the ME lists alcohol and medication intoxication as contributing factors without explaining how these conditions contributed. The report does not seem all that dispositive.

Anonymous said... She was killed by some Pigs, either by them Hanging her or doing a Chokehold on her! What's the difference? Shalom. Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...


Ignorance is a gift. Ignore the facts, even though I wasn't there I know everything that happened because my stupid article is looking more like the left-wing rant that it really is.

You need many more update here bud. This article really is a hoax and if you had any decency you would take it down.

1) There was no single out of TSA agents. In fact she cleared security and only had to go 3 gates. I'm not a big fan of the TSA, but I bit my lip and deal.
2) She missed the flight because she was late not overbooked. She had 40 minutes to go 3 gates. Instead she used as her last opportunity to get all sauced up. U didn't mention this.
3) She had BAC of .24 that's lighting the lamp. She was running around like a nuisance and is a big threat to elderly folks. She needed to be detained.
4) The Gotbaum examined her and it was accidental.
5) You do not understand the term of hanging in the clinical sense. It does not mean she was hanging from the rafters you moron.

Shoot I'm done here!!!

Go ahead in your make believe land...

Anonymous said...

Did she or did she not, die in Police custody? Now we are done! Anon Jaye

Anonymous said...

Well, I'm certainly happy to see that this article becomes reason to: bash Bush, bring the current war in Iraq into discussion, call any police force anywhere "PIGS", become a religion-bashing session, and calling each other idiots...good to know that I'm surrounded by such mature individuals...
Having to do a school assignment on this is really difficult, I won't lie. The endless amounts of information that tends to change with every story I read, is really fun to work with. And with people opening their mouths who don't have the first clue about what happened, yet absolutely knowing what they think is absolutely right, is just killing me.
Here's something to think about, so the police that approached this woman are supposed to know somehow right off the bat that she is in such a bad condition? For all they know, they are dealing with some lady who knows she's not a terrorist and is shouting it loud and clear for all to hear. They don't know that she is en route to a rehabilitation clinic. So maybe they do need to say sorry for not reading the big invisible sign on her forehead that states "I'm emotionally unstable, and I've had a history of drug use and depression. Approach with CAUTION". After all hindsight IS 20/20... How "piggish" of them to practice what they've been taught. Now, I must say, I know some police out there are bad cops and take advantage of their uniform, but in this case, something tells me they aren't dirty cops. I suppose I shall find out when this whole ordeal gets exposed.

Anonymous said...

Re: Carol Anne Gotbaum
Why has no one mentioned Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's philosophy regarding discipline and detention? He condones and encurages
cruel and brutal treatment to anyone who comes in contact with his oifficers. Oh and quite often the surveilance tapes mysteriously disappear.

Anonymous said...

Carol Gotbaum was a victim of her own weakness. She was a stinking drunk and she hanged herself by virtue of her own stupidity. Attempting to blame the police on one woman's own bad choices is the kind of soft-headed mentality that is afflicting America today. Blame everyone else, but don't bother making people accountable for their own stupid choices. Way to go, destroying America, one idiot at a time.

godzilla99 said...

HI sane wisconsin resident, just confused at the rants and raves logged here. wow. some really extreme viewpoints. Who was this woman to them? no one. another person in the huge flow of faceless peeps. hmmm.. it is sad she died. but that is life. try to improve the system. don't get negative like the strange author/blogger/weirdo that wrote or writes this. wow.,,, attention deficit much??? and care about your fellow americans. and earthians... so let's just all try harder to get along.. for real.