Tuesday, April 26, 2011

Allen West: Has the Militarist Right Found its New Warlord?

(Photo composite by William Wallace Grigg.)

Hello, Tea Partiers. Look at your president. Now back to me. Now back at your president. Now – back to me. Sadly, your president isn’t me…. Look down. Back up -- where are you? You’re in a torchlight parade led by the man who could be your president! What’s in your hand? – back at me. I have it – it’s that Constitution that you say you love. Look again – your Constitution has been replaced by a military junta! Anything is possible when your man smells like white phosphorous. I’m on a white horse.


"I want to start a draft Allen West movement!" exclaimed Glen Beck during his April 21st radio program. The radio personality has been cooing and burbling about West for months. He's convinced that the retired Army Lt. Colonel -- who was cashiered in disgrace for abusing a prisoner in a fashion that merited prosecution under Article 93 of the UCMJ -- is the "man of honor" our troubled country needs. 

Of course, Beck isn't the only one infatuated with West: the freshman congressman from Florida is emerging as something of an Old Spice Guy for the punitive populist Right.


"The next president will be either the end or the beginning of our country," Beck intoned, taking note of the potentially apocalyptic consequences of the metastasizing debt and our continued descent into an economic abyss. West has displayed no measurable interest in reducing the size and expense of the Leviathan State. In fact, the contrary is true: Before being elected to represent a Florida congressional district, West was an employee of the wealth-devouring, debt-propelled imperial military. His career as a hireling killer is what Beck describes as his most alluring trait.


"He has a strong military background," Beck gushed. "The guy was led through war, and he's not afraid to pull the trigger."


With Washington's legions engaged in three open wars and at least five covert conflicts, it's clear that the incumbent warlord is not hindered by a disinclination to "pull the trigger." In fact, under the reign of the Nobel Peace Laureate, Washington's military entanglements have expanded considerably and deepened dramatically, particularly through the use of death-dispensing drone aircraft. 

In terms of bellicosity overseas, a President Allen West would most likely take up seamlessly from his predecessor. The substantive difference between the two would become apparent in domestic affairs: West's model of an ideal society is the proto-fascist totalitarian state that ruled ancient Sparta.

In a recent address to a meeting of the Evangelical group "Women Impacting the Nation," West extolled the supposed virtues of the Spartan system, in which children (at least those who made the initial cut as newborns and weren't selected as genetic culls to be hurled from a cliff) were stolen from their parents and raised as the property of the State.

 "Spartan women at the age of nine gave up their male sons," West recounted to the gathering. "And their male sons went into a training that was called the Agoge and they stayed in that training for the next eleven to twelve years. And when they were finally qualified, when they were finally ready to join the ranks for the Spartan army, it was not their father who gave them their cloak and shield. It was their mother who gave them their shield" -- while uttering the famous admonition to return either carrying the shield in triumph, or as a lifeless corpse being carried upon it.



  
The ironies are thick enough here to blot out the sun, but it's sufficient to focus on three of them. First, the Evangelical women in the audience can be heard swooning with approval as West hymns the purported merits of a thoroughly pagan society that embodied the antithesis of every Christian virtue. Second, West -- who insists that we must either subjugate or annihilate Muslims because they "have no respect for human life" -- apparently believes that America should re-model itself after a garrison state built on a foundation of institutionalized child sacrifice on behalf of the State.

Even more remarkably, the same Allen West who recently sent a thrill down the leg of many Right-collectivist warbots by denouncing the integration of homosexuals into the imperial military heaped extravagant praise on a military indoctrination system built on what Dr. Paul Cartledge of Cambridge University calls "ritualized pederasty." Enforced homosexuality was part of the process whereby Spartan boys became "qualified" (as West so daintily put it) for service in the city-state's army.

 In his book The Spartans: The World of the Warrior-Heroes of Ancient Greece, from Utopia to Crisis and Collapse, Dr. Cartledge observes that after a Spartan boy's seventh birthday "he was removed from the home environment, for good, to embark on the compulsory and communal educational system know as the Agoge or Raising/Upbrining. Between the ages of seven and eighteen the boys and youths were organized in `packs' and `herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. They were encouraged to break the exclusive ties with their own natal families and to consider all Spartans of their father's age to be in loco parentis."

At the age of twelve, the Spartan male "was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover -- the technical Spartan term for the active senior partner was `inspirer,' while the junior partner was known as the `hearer,'" relates Dr. Cartledge. When the Spartan boy reached age eighteen he was evaluated for membership in the Crypteia, a police force assigned "to control the Helots" -- a population of civilian slaves who lived under a form of martial law and could be killed, with impunity, by the Spartan police.

If Barack Obama -- or even some tertiary bureaucratic appointee in his administration --were to invoke totalitarian Sparta as a model for an American social renaissance, Glenn Beck most likely would suffer a seizure at his chalkboard, and the entire warbot Right would go into convulsions. Allen West's candid endorsement of that vile totalitarian system, however, is seen as "courageous" and "principled" by that same social cohort.


"When was the last time you heard a politician speak like this?" squealed an enraptured conservative commentator regarding West's paean to Sparta's child-snatching militarist overlords.




Well, let's see:


There was that curious little fellow -- a bit eccentric, but a decorated combat veteran nonetheless -- who about eighty years ago explained: "When an opponent says, `I will not come over to your side,' I calmly say, `Your child belongs to us already.... You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing but this new community." 


Fleshing out the Dear Leader's vision, his Interior Minister, Wilhelm Frick, insisted that the "primary obligation" of parents, schools, and other institutions was "to raise youth for service to the Volk and state...." 


Another version of that same sentiment was expressed at a Soviet Communist Party Education Workers' Conference in 1918: "We must remove the children from the crude influence of their families. We must take them over and, to speak frankly, nationalize them. From the first days of their lives they will be under the healthy influence of Communist children's nurseries and schools. There they will grow up to be real Communists."


A few years ago, the militarist Right worked itself into a spittle-flinging frenzy over a video depicting what was described as Obama's "paramilitary youth corps." The black teenagers in that video -- whose choreographed presentation did have the flavor of a ritual worshipping the Dear Leader of a third world nation -- were enrolled in a Kansas City program for troubled youngsters. This disagreeable episode was an entirely isolated incident.


Allen West, on the other hand, has candidly endorsed the idea that virtuous American mothers should "[give] up their male sons" to be raised by the State, for the State; that they should teach their sons that there is no vocation holier than killing on behalf of the State; and that there is no act nobler than sacrificing one's life in the State's service.  

Many of the same people who saw the odd little performance in Kansas City as evidence of a plot to create a monolithic, nation-wide Paramilitary Youth Corps of fearsome size and iron discipline apparently think this arrangement would be just fine, as long as Allen West were the one in charge.


Perhaps he's being coy, but Colonel West insists that he's not interested in a presidential run in 2012. If he's sincere in that refusal, he might find himself gravitating toward a different venture promoted by Beck -- what one of his publicists describes as a coterie of "former CEOs, CIA agents, and military personnel who share his vision to restore the republic." 

On the basis of prior performance, it's pretty clear that Beck's "vision" doesn't include a repudiation of the Warfare State. The thumbnail sketch of his proposed brain trust suggests that he would be communing with people who have been instrumental in building that vertically integrated enterprise of plunder, bloodshed, and misery, and have profited from it. 


I find myself wondering if Beck and his clique will gather in some sheltered Rocky Mountain redoubt to prepare for the final economic and social collapse -- and then emerge in the aftermath to offer the kind of leadership only seasoned militarists can provide. If this is the case, I'd suggest naming their sanctuary Galtieri Gulch, in memory of a CIA-supported figure whose junta field-tested many of the techniques -- military tribunals, kidnappings, torture, summary execution -- that are now routinely employed by Washington. 


Allen West would make a suitable figurehead for a post-collapse American military junta, and I suspect that among his admirers can be found many people who quietly long for the advent of an American Galtieri or Pinochet. I suppose it would be progress, of a sort, to see a black man considered for the role of the Man on the White Horse. 


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Dum spiro, pugno!

40 comments:

Bushwack said...

Wow... Too bad you can't see the light from your tower.

We've had morons in charge of the nation pretty much since Reagan and he did a few things that weren't too great either. Our latest example of Moronism is Obama, who is taking this nation down a severely dangerous path. And you focus on a guy that could RIGHT the ship?

You site his leadership style without mentioning the lives of his men that he saved by his actions. You ask anyone that served under Allen West, and they will tell you HE is the real deal.

My opinion is you are a Paul fan, meaning you are a strict isolationist, you are financially conservative but socially progressive. Those three don't mesh with most.

Allen West is the Anti-Obama. If you are serious about fixing this nation, you would support him. IF you are Okay with the current lack of leadership then carry on.

Militant Right? Oh yeah that's it, we're sooo busy in the streets screaming obscenities at the opposition... Get a clue.

William N. Grigg said...

You site his leadership style without mentioning the lives of his men that he saved by his actions.

If West had been genuinely committed to the safety of his men, he would have ordered them to leave a country they had no right to invade in the first place.

Then again, if he were a patriot, rather than a militarist, he would have resigned his commission rather carry out unlawful orders to commit criminal aggression against Iraq.

Armed robbers have no right to kill or intimidate those who live in the homes they invade.

On the subject of being "socially progressive" -- what could be a better example than Col. West's open-mindedness regarding Sparta's homosexual military?

liberranter said...

Bushwacko, you must have wandered onto this blog by mistake (not an uncommon blunder by the rage-blinded and delusional). Otherwise, it's imposiible to view your rant as anything other than a joke, the ravings of a brainwashed fascist warbot, or, more likely, just a pathetic troll.

Most us will just assume that you intended to visit fascisminourtime.blogspot.com, but your fat little fingers miskeyed the URL.

Chris Mallory said...

I think Beck, West, Bushwack, et al........ read Guy Odom's "America's Man On Horseback" and didn't realize it was satire.

I don't understand how men who claim to espouse "rugged individualism" can constantly cry for "leaders" and "leadership". I am a grown man, I do not need or want a leader. Especially one who has spent his whole life immersed in the military's "Sir yes Sir!" mindset.

Kunsthausmann said...

The message of Representative "Old School Way" made clear enough his message to the fools of Women Impacting the Nation:

"I will restore the draft."

Anonymous said...

Wil,
interesting you should mention 'rocky mtn redoubt'. I left Boise years ago and moved to Wyoming, to get away from the .com crowd. Used to hang out in Payette with several friends also.
We here have noticed many new LEO uniforms and cars in our area of NW Wyoming.I think they are now setting up perimeters around the Jackson Hole area, lines of demarcation, so to speak. A friend came upon a new mobile home type(radar site?) building on the continental divide, way back on an old logging road, on the way out, a new black Suburban with tinted windows showed up.
The filthy rich may indeed be planning on holing up in many of the rocky mtn playground communities, Sun Valley included, and hire their bodyguards(Xe) to patrol 10 or 50 mile borders around these areas. Anything approaching will be visited by a gunship or armored column, for eradication? Crazy as it sounds, it starts to look really scary when you think what money and power can buy. 5-10 years safe from the rest of the world, in an exclusive community, free of looting and famine?

whitebuffalo said...

Bushwack said:

"You ask anyone that served under Allen West, and they will tell you HE is the real deal."

Without realizing it this comment by you actually makes Mr.Grigg's point; to wit, Allen West is indeed the "real deal": a kill-them-all-in-the-name-of-the-state-let-God-sort-them-out militarist man. AKA a psychopath wrapped in an Amerikan flag.

West is a very, very dangerous man. And I should know. For I was once just like him. I know very well the vicious, immature state of mind he and you, Bushwack, live in.

Although I'm sure the troll Bushwack has already moved on, I want to state quite clearly that there is no greater foe to the US Military than me. I despise everything it (and Allen West) stands for.

To you Mr. Griggs: your use of the Old Spice commercial was excellent. Those of us who know your work have come to expect such brilliance as a common treat in your written art. If ever there was such a thing as a starving artist suffering for his gift it is you sir.

William N. Grigg said...

If ever there was such a thing as a starving artist suffering for his gift it is you sir.

You're very kind! I'm constrained to point out that I'm hardly starving, as my ample carriage attests. I could actually profit from a short bout of starvation.

My son William Wallace, I'm proud to acknowledge, is the resident graphic genius in our family.

Doug Newman said...

These jugend would make for a great warmup band for Allen West:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agexr88YHFE

whitebuffalo said...

While I appreciate your modesty Mr. Grigg, I cannot help but scream in despair that idiots such as Sean Hannity and Rachele Maddow have million dollar contracts to espouse their gibberish yet all the while your intellect goes under funded and, more importantly, under read.

You may think you are not starving but you are most definitely an under appreciated artist.

History, however, will praise your wisdom.

Sal said...

Great article. I had to smile when West was interviewed on cable news following the recent 'accidental' murder of several Afghan boys while they were collecting firewood. West cautioned against jumping to conclusions, stating the the boys may have been gathering firewood at night, therefore they would not have been easily recognizable.

Yes, the words of West inspired fond memories of my own childhood when I used to head out after dark to gather firewood...*cough, cough*

When will neocons ever learn that Ron Paul is not an isolationist by any stretch of the imagination? When will neocons take the time to study and learn a person's positions in full detail and context before offering opinions? When will neocons learn the difference between isolationist and non-interventionist?

liberranter said...

While I appreciate your modesty Mr. Grigg, I cannot help but scream in despair that idiots such as Sean Hannity and Rachele Maddow have million dollar contracts to espouse their gibberish yet all the while your intellect goes under funded and, more importantly, under read.


Perfectly stated, whitebuffalo. The disparity in the remuneration and recognition accorded the likes of Hannitard and Madsow, spewers of establishment-enabling verbal vomitus, and that accorded a true scribe of our age like William demonstrates above all else that human existence is perversely unfair and illogical.

idahobob said...

Thank you, Will! Keep up the good fight. Ignore Trolls like "Bushwack".
Obviously a name that fits his trollish nature well.

God Bless,

Bob
III

Anonymous said...

Spartans wuss out at the Battle of Pylos when the children of the elite are trapped, on their own territory, due to their own incompetence. Spartans, it had been supposed, would never surrender, until they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pylos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sphacteria

The Romans take over and tell the Spartans to stop killing their children. The Spartans are reduced to putting on athletic spectacles for their new masters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sparta#Nabis_and_Roman_intervention

MoT said...

I remember this West cat from the gun "incident". The man is so off the rails that if those idiotic women will swoon to this goons siren song of death then a pox on all their houses. What a disgrace! Would Jesus even recognize them? Clearly they worship Moloch instead.

Now as for Glen Beck... Sheesh! Where to begin? This raving lunatic is constantly frothing at the mouth about one thing or the other. I would suggest that someone, with a nod to Principal Skinner, remove Glenns chalk... He's clearly over stimulated and not by what rational people would call "independent thought".

Libertarian Blue said...

Very nice article Mr. Grigg, I do hope Lew Rockwell and company take notice of this piece. The sad if not also hypocritical how those who claim to be pro-life (including West) openly support mindless murder of innocent people abroad. To them human life apparently has an asterisk.

Reg T said...

I use to have some respect for Mr. Grigg, but all I can say now is, you folks sure are impressed with yourselves.

I don't agree with everything West says or does, but he has more honor in his little finger than you folks ranting your ridiculous Libertarian demagoguery.

Go back to your useful rants about out of control law enforcement (true - I use to be a peace officer and agree with you) and the fact that we _shouldn't_ be involved in foreign wars. But you sicken me when you speak such tripe about your betters.

Yes, go ahead and call me a troll so you can avoid facing the truth. That's fine with me.

Arctic Patriot said...

I dunno here, Will.

You're making some pretty big leaps of logic with this one. I mean, Sparta (a culture that was not out of its contextual place or historic milleu- how about you spend some time doing research on them other than to prove your points...), Hitler, and the Soviets, all in one?

Not to worry. Any person capable of defeating Obama in '12 will be so ripped up and de-legitimized by infighting that it'll be another party for Obama in '12.

Then, at least instead of a "Homo-worshiping, genocidal, kidnapping, communist Nazi" (that is, after all, essentially what you're saying here), you'll have a True Believer Marxist activist in the white house continuing his dismantling of America for another four years.

Won't you be a happy guy then?

Who's your man in 2012, Will?

We can find quotes and statements made by any candidate to prove any point we wish. Here's an idea- Let's engage them all with MLRS salvos before they ever get off the ground. That'll help things. The cause of liberty will be greatly advanced when Obama is re-elected, I'm sure.

Sometimes there's no knight in shining armor. Sometimes the guy who wins is barely more palatable than the one who was defeated.

We're not taking this nation back by electing the magical fairy libertarian candidate. It's just not going to happen. We're too far gone for that.

At this point, I support no candidate. I do, however, oppose Obama.

Obama will win in 2012, I am sure. That sucks.

Bet on it.

AP

William N. Grigg said...

Who's your man in 2012, Will?
I'm not unduly preoccupied with the matter of choosing a short-term dictator, and if I were I wouldn't be inclined to choose between a Marxist "community organizer" and a militarist war criminal.

The only presidential candidate whose views, values, and record I respect has no measurable chance of winning.

Bob said...

I still think there is a legitimate chance that this country will be dismembered in our lifetimes.

Anonymous said...

West doesn't hold a candle to the Chicago Jesus. Obambi is the greatest human being ever to walk the face of the earth, his intellect could melt a glacier and he is a cool rockstar *hee hee*. The most shocking thing about the birth certificate was that he was born, I thought divine providence gifted him to us the unwashed prole masses. All praise Comrade Kenya the one.

liberranter said...

Go back to your useful rants about out of control law enforcement (true - I use to be a peace officer and agree with you)

First of all, you were never a "peace officer," which has traditionally been defined as one who uses his limited and conditional authority to protect the rights, lives, and property of the citizenry. There have been no people serving in an official capacity for years, if not decades, with exceptions of a few isolated localities in which the local sheriff was aware of his proper role as a defender of the Constitution and a barrier against lawlessness by the government or its agents.

What you were was a law enforcement officer, an enforcer of positivist fiats from the local, state, and no doubt occasionally federal government, fiats which on ninety-nine point nine nine nine occasions out of one hundred were completely unconstitutional and thus unlawful. The tenor of your post alone reveals this to be the case (which is why I don't by your fatuous BS statement about your agreeing with "out of control law enforcement." Nice try.)

Now why don't you mosey on over to doubledigitiq.com (a.k.a. http://www.officer.com) and spew your arrogant, authoritarian nonsense to an audience that will appreciate it and who will lap up every lying keystroke of your posts? This site is for freedom-loving grownups.

William N. Grigg said...

This site is for freedom-loving grownups.

People of that kind are my preferred company -- but I certainly won't turn away readers of any persuasion: "Come, let us reason together," and all that. :-)

MoT said...

Will... "and record I respect has no measurable chance of winning"

That pretty much sums up the mentality of the Statist trolls who on occasion flock over here. It IS all about winning. Truth and honesty be damned if can you parrot a false religious air, tickle the ears of simpletons, prance about with your medals on your sleeve and ,should you get ensconced in the whore house on the Potomac, you make damn sure you kill enough people "over there" to get into the Imperial history books. Worked in the past, working now, will work again.

whitebuffalo said...

Reg T said:

"...(West) has more honor in his little finger"..."

"But you sicken me when you speak such tripe about your betters."

A few questions then for you:

What is your definition of "honor"? And how exactly does West have more than us?

Who exactly is our "betters"? And how is it that they are our betters?

I await your response, thank you.

liberranter said...

I await your response, thank you.

Don't hold you breath on that, unless you enjoy blacking out and the color of skin turned blue.

MacFall said...

Apparently, Reg T sees a man who would steal children from their families to be raised by the violence-worshiping state as the epitome of "honor". Considering that most of us here would see that as the pure opposite of honor, I see no point in discussing the matter with him. To our respective sides, the crucial word represents completely antonymous concepts.

Cody said...

To people like Reg T, "honor" is earned by donning a imperial costume and punishing designated Evildoers on behalf of the Glorious, Almighty, Omnipotent State. Will should be proud of the fact that that sniveling little authoritarian boot-licker thinks he has less "honor" than Allen West has "in his little finger."

Talha said...

The Mongol Hordes were full of extremely tough warriors that completely annihilated their opposition. They chewed through much of Asia almost uncontested. They had discipline and a fierce sense of warrior identity.

Maybe Mr. West can suggest we be more like them?

Parmeniclitus said...

Dear Mr. Grigg-

Let me begin by stating that, while I'm no supporter of West, nor am I Christian, I do hold liberty in the highest regard and so I find myself visiting your blog with some regularity. Your perspective and style are both engaging and why I continually return.

In this case, however, I think your Christianity has blinded you and thus your interpretation of West is off base. Simply because West extols the strength of Spartan women it does not follow that he, therefore, extol the society as a whole. Whether or not the society, the reasons for their strength, was "good" or "bad" are beside the fact that they were strong and provided the backbone of Spartan society in so many ways. The moral question is wholly a different question than the points he is bringing up.

We also have to bear in mind the context in which he is speaking. Our present "society" finds us with women who have largely swallowed statist Progressivism wholesale and which fetishes them as perpetually weak, victims of ever-present male aggression, which is even more the case with "minority" women. Rather than making feminine strength a notion to strive after, we have many women who prey upon the male populace that is itself considered in a state of semi-criminality by the very fact of being male. This has done nothing but wreak havoc upon family, culture, and society as a whole, as well as aiding the idea that being a "victim" is a perpetual, static ontological category that can never change, that can never become strong in its own right without the aid of the State.

Simply because West is extolling the virtue of strength found amongst Spartan women does not entail that he must therefore embrace the whole of Spartan society. Being that he was a military man (which may have been the means for him to become educated rather than a thug or bum, depending on his circumstance)it doesn't seem spurious to me to promote strength rather than weakness, or that he would simply be more informed about Sparta than many other societies.

My point is, that simply because we may admire some traits in a person, or in a social structure, doesn't mean we admire the person/society in toto.

Thank you for your time.

William N. Grigg said...

Simply because West extols the strength of Spartan women it does not follow that he, therefore, extol the society as a whole... The moral question is wholly a different question than the points he is bringing up.

That's entirely true. It could be that West admires the Spartans' tenacity in holding the pass against a vastly superior invading force (I certainly do, while I abhor pretty much everything else about that society).

Here are two very important reasons why I reached the conclusions I did about West:

The specific example West used to illustrate the "strength" of Spartan women was their willingness to surrender their children into the hands of a totalitarian military apparatus. I think the proper description of that trait is "conformity" not "strength."

A genuinely strong woman worthy of commendation would be willing to kill anyone who came for her son, and would fight to protect him as long as breath remained in her body.

Although Antigone is a work of fiction, her costly defiance of the king in defense of her family is a far better role model for strong women.

West has made it clear that he believes the war against "Islamo-Fascism" is should be the central defining principle of American society for the foreseeable future. When somebody like that starts extolling the supposed virtue of surrendering children to the State, I reach for the nearest firearm.

Incidentally, if West understood patriotism, rather than statist militarism, he would understand that in the Iraqi conflict, he and the other Americans were playing the role of Persians, not Spartans.

whitebuffalo said...

A superb response to Parmeniclitus Mr.Grigg. But I would like to thank him for another excellent example of doublethink: submission is strength! The prophet Orwell would be proud.

Switters said...

Hey Will,
Don't fret... RP is going to be elected...in order to bring the Fed down... "controlled demolition-style".
Only time will tell whether he knows this or not.
I have faith in the man. May God protect him from the machinations of the shadow elite.
Bad things trends to follow the abolition of the central banks.
When Americans get too uppity, the oligarchs terms to smack them down.
Final thought...any candidate that opposes total openness and freedom on the internet...is not a friend of the people. The young generation will realize this. That's the key.

Parmeniclitus said...

No, whitebuffalo, the "doublethink" is placing something in my verbiage that simply isn't there and pretending it is.

In no way did I say any such thing as "submission is strength" or even allude to such nonsense.

Spartan culture,like every culture, contained a certain amount of "submission. " There are aspects that are beyond the purview and control of each individual. This doesn't mean the Spartans had no rational actors, they simply acted within a continuously developing framework as all men do. And I'm willing to bet,you "submit" everyday to something or other...Or else you didn't just write in English. :-)

At any rate, I wasn't siding with West (of whom I'm not as familiar with as Mr. Grigg seems to be), or Spartan society per se (which I do have some familiarity), but only judging differently from what Mr. Grigg interpreted within the context of the WIN video. My comments centered around another idea, namely that strength is multidimensional and manifests in a myriad of manners.

As I said before, Spartan women did, in my eyes, have far more strength and character than our perennially "victimized" strain of femininity today that submits itself in its own way and to the detriment of others. I prefer a Spartan woman's sense of strength *in this context* to that of a socially enfeebling and hypocritical "equality." That is what I stated in regard to West's comments at WIN.

In addition, I never said there were no other types of strength (a la Grigg's example of Antigone)that are admirable or even better suited to today's standards. It depends upon what facet of today's social circumstances of which we are speaking and to which facet of another alien society we are comparing it to, or even in differing periods within our own.

Parmeniclitus said...

Mr. Grigg-

Thank you for your reasoned response. Judging by your writing I would expect nothing else.

You wrote: "Incidentally, if West understood patriotism, rather than statist militarism, he would understand that in the Iraqi conflict, he and the other Americans were playing the role of Persians, not Spartans."

You will find no disagreement with me here, and this is something I've considered over the years. This also brought to mind the hullabaloo that arose on the part of the ever-so-touchy upon the release of that ridiculous movie "300." The chin-rubbing "intellectuals" knew it had to be anti-Arab somehow, but trying to figure out who actually constituted the "Persians" and "Spartans" proved to be quite a hermeneutic nightmare given the circumstances in the Middle East...

whitebuffalo said...

To Parmeniclitus:

Of course you didn't say anything such as submission is strength; that's why I didn't use quotation marks. But you did indeed allude to it by defending West's obvious support of the idea that Spartan women are to be considered strong because they willingly gave up their children to the state, thereby advancing the idea that the individual is subservient to the state.

And the only point Mr. Grigg was making was that West thinks submission to the state is to be considered an act of bravery when it is not.

Mr. Grigg was not asking for a philosophical conversation on "what is strength?"

Your obvious attempt to show you're the smartest guy in the room has failed. Mr Grigg still is.

William N. Grigg said...

White Buffalo, my friend, I really appreciate your kind words -- but this isn't a competition. :-) I can learn something from just about everybody who posts here, including both you and Parmeniclitus. By the way, did you see the latter's most recent contribution?

Parmeniclitus said...

White Buffalo-

"Your obvious attempt to show you're the smartest guy in the room has failed. Mr Grigg still is."

It could also be that I felt impelled to add something to a conversation between other smart adults who hold at least some similar views to my own. Whether or not my contribution will be considered "smart" by those others remains for those others to say...

Good day.

whitebuffalo said...

Mr. Grigg,

No I didn't see his recent post prior to mine. I agree it isn't a competition but your statement "I can learn something from just everybody who posts here, including both you and Parmeniclitus." does support my argument that you are indeed the smartest guy in the room!

laosuwan said...

this guy is ok. he has been in battle and guys who have been in battle are much less likely to send others into battle. Look at Obama, Bush II, Clinton, etc., etc. if you need more proof.

The other thing I like about him is he has what islam is really about all figured out and he does not seem to be a puppet of the banks.

Most of this post seems to embellish and attribute to him more hawkishness than is there.